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Capitalization of "with" in proposed rule change
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
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There is a proposal being generated to change the wording of the Title rule, concerning English titles.

It has been decided to establish a specific set of words that would not be capitalized, unless they are the first, last or only word in the title.

The current list is "a", "an", "and", "as", "at", "but", "by", "for", "in", "it", "nor", "of", "on", "or", "the", "to", and "up".

There is a discussion as to whether "with" should be included within this list.

As the general community, what say you?
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantmediadogg
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I'm confused (as usual re contribution rules): why wouldn't we use whatever was on the DVD itself - the cover, the opening credits, the .IFO files, whatever?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
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Quoting mediadogg:
Quote:
why wouldn't we use whatever was on the DVD itself - the cover, the opening credits, the .IFO files, whatever?

I think Ken (or others with influence) doesn't like ALL CAPS.

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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKathy
Registered: May 29, 2007
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Quoting mediadogg:
Quote:
I'm confused (as usual re contribution rules): why wouldn't we use whatever was on the DVD itself - the cover, the opening credits, the .IFO files, whatever?


There are many instances in which we apply the capitalization rules: Titles, Episode Dividers etc.

People are applying these rules differently - some use "with", others "With" - and the problem is that both are correct and backed by reputable sources.

The proposed rule change is needed to provide consistency in contributions.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
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Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
There is a proposal being generated to change the wording of the Title rule, concerning English titles.

It has been decided to establish a specific set of words that would not be capitalized, unless they are the first, last or only word in the title.

The current list is "a", "an", "and", "as", "at", "but", "by", "for", "in", "it", "nor", "of", "on", "or", "the", "to", and "up".

There is a discussion as to whether "with" should be included within this list.

As the general community, what say you?


Where are you getting this list?  It is not in the rules so it mist be from some clarification somewhere, just curious on why "up" would be in there
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKathy
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The rules committee has an ongoing discussion to request a change to the rules.

It was agreed that a simple approach, which was back by reputable source, might work best.

Someone suggested the list used by The U.S. Government Printing Office Style Manual: "Capitalize all words in titles of publications and documents, except a, an, the, at, by, for, in, of, on, to, up, and, as, but, it, or, and nor."

Further discussion led the committee to discuss whether "with" should also be included in this list.
 Last edited: by Kathy
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantMsPaula
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Registered: March 14, 2007
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I have to disagree about capitalizing the word 'with'. 

I can't help but compare it to the similar word 'from'.  Those two words can act within a title in the same capacity, yet I do not see folks clamoring for a decision on the word 'from' as well.  Both are four letters in length and can serve as a conjuntive word, so why is one in contention while the other is not?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKathy
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Quoting MtnMike:
Quote:
I have to disagree about capitalizing the word 'with'. 

I can't help but compare it to the similar word 'from'.  Those two words can act within a title in the same capacity, yet I do not see folks clamoring for a decision on the word 'from' as well.  Both are four letters in length and can serve as a conjuntive word, so why is one in contention while the other is not?


"From" vs. "from" has also been brought up in the discussion. Are you a member of the rules committee? There are pages of discussion and it would be great to get more input into this process.

The committee is open to everyone - all one needs to do is request access.
 Last edited: by Kathy
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
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Quoting MtnMike:
Quote:
I have to disagree about capitalizing the word 'with'. 

I can't help but compare it to the similar word 'from'.  Those two words can act within a title in the same capacity, yet I do not see folks clamoring for a decision on the word 'from' as well.  Both are four letters in length and can serve as a conjuntive word, so why is one in contention while the other is not?



The whole issue is to come up with a common "writing" style that everybody can follow.  Unfortunately, there are many different ways to capitalize a title, and all would be correct. 

For Example

Sentence Case (Down Style)
Quote:
Capitalize only the first word of the title and any proper nouns


Title Case (Up Style)
Quote:
Capitalize the first and last words of the title and all nouns, pronouns, adjectives, verbs, adverbs, and subordinating conjunctions


AP Style
Quote:
"Capitalize major words in titles of books and articles within the body of the paper. Conjunctions, articles, and short prepositions are not considered major words; however, capitalize all words of four letters or more. Capitalize all verbs (including linking verbs), nouns, adjectives, adverbs, and pronouns. When a capitalized word is a hyphenated compound, capitalize both words. Also, capitalize the first word after a colon or a dash in a title. . . .

"Exception: In titles of books and articles in reference lists, capitalize only the first word, the first word after a colon or em dash, and proper nouns. Do not capitalize the second word of a hyphenated compound."


Chicago manual of Style
Quote:
1. Capitalize the first and last words in titles and subtitles (but see rule 7), and capitalize all other major words (nouns, pronouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, and some conjunctions--but see rule 4).

2. Lowercase the articles the, a, and an.

3. Lowercase prepositions, regardless of length, except when they are used adverbially or adjectivally (up in Look Up, down in Turn Down, on in The On Button, to in Come To, etc.) or when they compose part of a Latin expression used adjectivally or adverbially (De Facto, In Vitro, etc.).

4. Lowercase the conjunctions and, but, for, or, and nor.

5. Lowercase to not only as a preposition (rule 3) but also as part of an infinitive (to Run, to Hide, etc.), and lowercase as in any grammatical function.

6. Lowercase the part of a proper name that would be lowercased in text, such as de or von.

7.Lowercase the second part of a species name, such as fulvescens in Acipenser fulvescens, even if it is the last word in a title or subtitle.


Other guides say that prepositions and conjunctions of fewer than five letters should be in lowercase

For DVDP purposes, we want the same rule for every title.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantmediadogg
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Thanks, I understand now. I'm sure it will turn out OK, cause we've got the right people working on it. Good luck!
Thanks for your support.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
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Quoting Kathy:
Quote:
The rules committee has an ongoing discussion to request a change to the rules.

It was agreed that a simple approach, which was back by reputable source, might work best.

Someone suggested the list used by The U.S. Government Printing Office Style Manual: "Capitalize all words in titles of publications and documents, except a, an, the, at, by, for, in, of, on, to, up, and, as, but, it, or, and nor."

Further discussion led the committee to discuss whether "with" should also be included in this list.



what about "The To Do List"?  and "eXistenZ"

there are always exceptions. But I guess one more screwy rule that forces incorrect data to be contributed won't make that much of a difference. Unless the rules committee have English & Literary experts among them, I don't think they are qualified to make a ruling.
 Last edited: by ateo357
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKathy
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Quoting ateo357:
Quote:

what about "The To Do List"?  and "eXistenZ"

there are always exceptions. But I guess one more screwy rule that forces incorrect data to be contributed won't make that much of a difference. Unless the rules committee have English & Literary experts among them, I don't think they are qualified to make a ruling.


There will always be exceptions. The goal is to make things as consistent as possible.

The only one qualified to make the final decision is Ken. All the committee does is discuss issues and present them to invelos - it is up to Ken to decide whether to take action or not.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
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Quoting Kathy:
Quote:
Quoting ateo357:
Quote:

what about "The To Do List"?  and "eXistenZ"

there are always exceptions. But I guess one more screwy rule that forces incorrect data to be contributed won't make that much of a difference. Unless the rules committee have English & Literary experts among them, I don't think they are qualified to make a ruling.


There will always be exceptions. The goal is to make things as consistent as possible.

The only one qualified to make the final decision is Ken. All the committee does is discuss issues and present them to invelos - it is up to Ken to decide whether to take action or not.



Qualified is the wrong word to use. He is the owner. Period. He basis his decision in part by what is presented to him by the committee. If he makes a decision at all.
 Last edited: by ateo357
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
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Quoting ateo357:
Quote:


what about "The To Do List"?  and "eXistenZ"

there are always exceptions. But I guess one more screwy rule that forces incorrect data to be contributed won't make that much of a difference. Unless the rules committee have English & Literary experts among them, I don't think they are qualified to make a ruling.



What about those "exceptions"?

Question for you, in titles do you capitalize "opposite"?  How about the word "until"?  "amid"?  "via"?

I can quote styles, that say none of these words should be capitalized (all prepositions).

I can quote style guides that only 1 is not capitalized.  Also a guide where 2 of the 4 are not capitalized.  Should we have discussions about each one of these, or any of the 300+ words I can come up with?

This is the reason for a need for a finite standard, that people can point to.  There will always be exceptions, and most of those will not require a discussion.  This is primarily to head off potential discussions and debates.  (like the topic concerning the word "with")

No not a literary or English expert, just a person that was taught the right way from a list of right ways....
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
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Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
Quoting ateo357:
Quote:


what about "The To Do List"?  and "eXistenZ"

there are always exceptions. But I guess one more screwy rule that forces incorrect data to be contributed won't make that much of a difference. Unless the rules committee have English & Literary experts among them, I don't think they are qualified to make a ruling.



What about those "exceptions"?

Question for you, in titles do you capitalize "opposite"?  How about the word "until"?  "amid"?  "via"?

I can quote styles, that say none of these words should be capitalized (all prepositions).

I can quote style guides that only 1 is not capitalized.  Also a guide where 2 of the 4 are not capitalized.  Should we have discussions about each one of these, or any of the 300+ words I can come up with?

This is the reason for a need for a finite standard, that people can point to.  There will always be exceptions, and most of those will not require a discussion.  This is primarily to head off potential discussions and debates.  (like the topic concerning the word "with")

No not a literary or English expert, just a person that was taught the right way from a list of right ways....


And that would be your opinion. Just as I would think I was taught the right way.  If they are different does that make either one of us wrong?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
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Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
I guess one more screwy rule that forces incorrect data to be contributed won't make that much of a difference.

No, it won't, so there's no need for you to distress yourself over it.

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