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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Articles such as de, de la, di, von |
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Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,807 |
| Posted: | | | | The Credits Rule states: Articles (such as de, de la, di, von) are entered in the appropriate name field along with the name that they precede. Use the film credits to determine whether the actor capitalizes this article or not.Actually "de", "de la", "di", "von", are just a few examples. I would like to add some more of those articles, as a reference to contributors. I will edit this post and add other links and references if provided in the thread . As a starting point, we could use the List of surname prefixes (Library of Congress) in this paper. Quote: A Ai Ap AuxA Ak Ar Az A’ Al As Af Am Au Ag An Aus Bel D De’ Dell’ Des D’ De la Della Det Da De las Dellas Di Dal De lo Delle Dia Dalla De los Delli Die Dallas Degli Dello Do Dalle Dei Dellos Dos Das Del Den Du De Delah Der E Ei Eit En Een Ein El Et Eene Eine Els Ett Gl’ Gli Ha Hen Hinar Hoi Hai Het Hinir He Hi Hinn Heis Hin Hn II Il Im Isa Ka Ke L Le Li Lou L’ Les Lis Lu La Lh’ Lo Las Lhi Los Mia Na Ni Ni Nje Ny OO O’ ’O Oi Op Op de ’S Si T Ta Ten To ’T Te Ter Um¯a Um Un Une Uns Una Uno Us Van Van der Vom Von zu Van de Vel Von Van den Ver Von der Y Ye Yn Yr Z Zu Zum Zur
I will point out some of the articles used in my native language, Italian. Other fellow users might say what articles are used in their own languages, if they want. D', Da, Dal, De, de', Dalla, Dei, Del, Della, Delli, Degli, Delle, Dello, Di, La, Le, Li, Lo All those words are prepositions or articles in the Italian language, as you can verify yourself in any dictionary. "de" / "d'" / "di" = of, "da" = from, "degli" / "delle", etc. = of the, "li", "lo", etc. = "the" You could find either "d'" or "D'", "de" or "De"... One more reference is another paper on surnames. It is written in Italian and also deals with the official sorting of names, I'll report the examples of articles and prepositions before surnames all over the world. Disclaimer: a "Von" is always part of the last name in German names, AFAIK, and a "De" is always part of the last name in Italian names, BUT sometimes the same word may not be part of the last name, especially in other languages, for instance "Dallas" is also a middle name in the US. CZECH / SLOVAK z *Zerotina, Karel FRANCE ... Gaulle, Charles : de Musset, Alfred : de La_Fontaine, Jean : de La_Bruyère, René Du_Bellay, Joachim GERMANY ... Zum_Felde, Albrecht Bismarck, Otto : von Hagen, Friedrich : von der Thie, Hermann : auf dem Vries, Bernhard : de Beethoven, Ludwig : van Le_Fort, Gertrud : von Delle Grazie, Marie Eugenie ITALY ... A_Prato, Giovanni De_Rossi, Giovanni Battista Del_Bene, Sennuccio Della_Casa, Giovanni ... Medici, Lorenzino : de' Uberti, Fazio : degli NETHERLANDS ... Hoen, Pieter : 't Elst, Luc : ter Bom, Emmanuel : de Veen, Otto : van Aa, Pieter : van der Ver_Boven, Daisy ENGLISH LANGUAGE A'Beckett, Gilbert Abbott Ap_Rhys Price, Henry Edward D'Avenant, William De_La_Rue, Warren De_Quincey, Thomas La_Farge, Oliver Le_Fanu, Joseph Sheridan O'Connell, Daniel Van_Druten, John PORTUGUESE LANGUAGE ... Fonseca, Branquinho : da Melo, Francisco Manuel : de SCANDINAVIAN COUNTRIES ... Linné, Karl : af Dalin, Olof : von Schoultz, Greta : von La_Cour, Paul L'Orange, Arvid De_La_Gardie, Magnus Gabriel De_Besche, Per SEMITIC LANGUAGES ... al-*Farabi, Abu Nasr Muhammad SPANISH LANGUAGE ... Las_Heras, Manuel Antonio Castillo, Diego : del Casas, Bartolomé : de las La_Rosa Toro, Agustin : de ROMANIA ... A_Mariei, Vasile Puscariu, 'Ion : de RUSSIA ... De_Pule, Mihail Fedorovic SOUTH AFRICA ... Van_Der_Merwe, Paul | | | -- Enry | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| Registered: May 19, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,917 |
| Posted: | | | | My brain just blew up. |
| Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,807 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr. Killpatient: Quote: My brain just blew up. Basically, the O' translated in other languages. | | | -- Enry |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Use your head, Enry. Surely you don't expect ANY list to be complete and comprehensive. The Rules stae articles and list a few examples. I assume you know what an article is...yes? <shakes head> Give me a a break, is there nothing you won't attack.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,807 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote: Use your head, Enry. Surely you don't expect ANY list to be complete and comprehensive. The Rules stae articles and list a few examples. I assume you know what an article is...yes? <shakes head> Give me a a break, is there nothing you won't attack.
Skip Again, please read the forum rules before posting. | | | -- Enry |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Again what is with the question? o you seriously expect a comprehensive list, which I guarantee you would NOT be comprehensive or complete. you also seem to claim that Mac and Mc are articles which they are not that I am aware of. I don't what your objective is but I know what my view of it is. By the way I have absolutely no doubt that you threw a red vote, because after all you do not wish for anyone to voice anyt opinion which runs counter to your own do you. Your threat fall on deaf ears sir, if you think that falls under the forum Rules, if so you shgould have been banned long ago. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,807 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote: Mac and Mc are articles which they are not that I am aware of.
Agree. The "Mac" prefix doesn't belong with a list of articles before names, AFAIU. Edited. | | | -- Enry |
| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,459 |
| Posted: | | | | Interesting list - though not sure how useful it would be in the long run. You should maybe also put a disclaimer that sometimes they may not be an article but a middle name (I'm thinking in particular of Dallas). Also, I never saw the pre-edited version, but at least for Scottish (and some Irish) names, Mac and Mc are valid prefixes to a family name (it means "of"). However it is almost always actually attached to the family name and so not likely to be mistaken for a separate word. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Except that is not Universal, Enry. I will give Mc and Mac a usually, particularly Mac. That is half the problem is that there is no such thing as a naming law by which everybody in any culture must abide under penalty of prison. How a person, any person deals with his/her own name is their business and you can make any claim you wish about how a name should be handled, all you are really doing is posturing, and GUESSING based upon whatever norms YOU were taught. Unless you have some very personal knowledge abouta given person then you in reality have absolutely no idea.
As in the examples I PM'd you with sometime back. Simply based on the data you might think one thing about how the name should be presented, and as I pointed out to you that would be dead wrong. It is my recognition of the above is why the system was setup per film credits as it was, most of us do not really have intimate enough information about a given person to have a clue how they parse their name or whether they us de or De. I wonder how many interviewers asked, for example, is it Gloria De Haven, de Haven or maybe DeHaven. We might be able to produce research which can lead us to reasonable conclusion, perhaps even an authoritative conclusion but certainly NOT definitive. I have even seen autographs of people which are handled in different ways so...
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,807 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote: Interesting list - though not sure how useful it would be in the long run. My idea is to have a reference thread like that we have for studios, and some more examples than the very few ones in the Rule. It doesn't aim to be a complete list (the studio reference thread isn't either) but I hope users from other countries will chime in and correct or add stuff if they want, so it will get as good as it can. Quote: You should maybe also put a disclaimer that sometimes they may not be an article but a middle name (I'm thinking in particular of Dallas). Right, I'm going to put that disclaimer. However, in Germany -say- a "Von" is always part of the surnname, as far as I understand. Quote: Also, I never saw the pre-edited version, but at least for Scottish (and some Irish) names, Mac and Mc are valid prefixes to a family name (it means "of"). However it is almost always actually attached to the family name and so not likely to be mistaken for a separate word. It just showed a few examples of Scottish last names with Mac and Mc. If "Mac" means "of" as you say, then it belonged with the list, after all. I read it means "son of", actually. However, I agree with you to leave it out anyway, because it is almost always attached to the family name, so not likely to be mistaken for a separate word. | | | -- Enry |
| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,459 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote: If "Mac" means "of" as you say, then it belonged with the list, after all. I read it means "son of", actually. However, I agree with you to leave it out anyway, because it is almost always attached to the family name, so not likely to be mistaken for a separate word. My (very limited) understanding is that yes, originally it would mean "son of", and I believe "O'" would mean "grandson of". However, down the years it became more generalised and came to mean "of the family" or "of the clan", so MacDonald meant "of the Donald family or clan". But it's been a while since I did any reading on Scottish genealogy! |
| Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,807 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
My (very limited) understanding is that yes, originally it would mean "son of", and I believe "O'" would mean "grandson of". However, down the years it became more generalised and came to mean "of the family" or "of the clan", so MacDonald meant "of the Donald family or clan". But it's been a while since I did any reading on Scottish genealogy! There's always something to learn. Thank you for the comments. I've just added the disclaimer as you suggested. | | | -- Enry |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Once again, Enry you are making claims as if the were fact and ALWAYS true and they are NOT always true.
Take for example Vondale, is it Vondale or VonDale or perhaps even Von Dale. You don't know, you don't have sufficient information to know the answer. And no amount of applying cultural norms to the name brings you any closer to the answer.It tyakes information which you do not possess and aren't likely to. You can only make an assumption which like as not will be WRONG. The ONLY piece of information we have is the name on screen and scream as loudly wish, you don't KNOW the answers for ANY of them, you can guess and you can make assumptions but you can't KNOW unless you have access to that person.
And as I have noted Macwhatever may or may not be correct, MacWhatever may not be either. There are many Americans whose family tree would tell you that MacWhatever is their heritage, but they use Macwhatever, buy what RIGHT would you claim that you know that the name would MacWhatever, just on the basis of Mac...but that would be wrong.
I'm sorry you don't like it, Enry. My position on names comes from not being an American, but from a person who is internationally familiar with many of the world's naming conventions, as well as American, and a recognition that the only real answer is person him/herself, there is no LAW about names, there is not even a real convention per se. Every person's name is deeply personal, and they handle it in whatever manner they choose to handle it for whatever reasons they have. Courtesy of my father I have no middle name, I only have a middle initial E., yes that E. does stand for Edward, BUT for some reason at some point in the past my father took a dislike to Edward and dropped in favor of simply E. Why...I don't know...my father has been gone many years...and when i was younger it didn't seem to be an important enough question to ask about. So to list my middel name as Edward would be wrong, even though it might a reasonable assumption based on E.
You simply cannot make the claims you are making, Enry, they are not fact-based.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,807 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: [...] Quote: That is half the problem is that there is no such thing as a naming law by which everybody in any culture must abide under penalty of prison. How a person, any person deals with his/her own name is their business and you can make any claim you wish about how a name should be handled, all you are really doing is posturing, and GUESSING based upon whatever norms YOU were taught. Unless you have some very personal knowledge abouta given person then you in reality have absolutely no idea.
[...] Just follow the Rules, which are very clear in this case: Quote: Articles (such as de, de la, di, von) are entered in the appropriate name field along with the name that they precede. So, if in the language of the name a word is an article (or a preposition, actually, like "de", "von" etc.), then we are asked to enter it in the appropriate name field along with the name it precedes. However, I also agree with northbloke about the disclaimer, some caution may be needed, for instance "Dallas" is an article in some languages but can also be a name in the U.S. By the way, exceptions can be found everywhere, not just in articles before names! For instance, think of the word "Major": it usually is a military rank, but according to Onelook.com it also can be male given name (rare: 1 in 14285 males; popularity rank in the U.S.: #826) You never know! | | | -- Enry |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | I agree, Enry. Particularly about exceptions, which is why I said something about you r word usage, I learned LOOOOOONG ago to never use ALWAYS or any other conclusive word, they will only get you in trouble eventually. Nothing is ALWAYS this or that. We always have to be very careful in this kind of area and be wary of making assumptions. There are several actors that come to mind that have yes, a middle name of Del (short for Delbert). I guess all I am saying is BE CAREFUL. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,197 |
| Posted: | | | | Right now many can't even place a straight von in the right field, how you expect them to even look at such a list? I'll take ONE name field now, thankyou! | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 | | | Last edited: by Nexus the Sixth |
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