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Registered: May 20, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,934 |
| Posted: | | | | If in the credits it is listed as follows
Police Actor Actress actor actor Thug Actor Actor Actor Etc.
Would it be proper in profiler to list it as
Police Actor Police actress police actor police
Thugs Actor thug actor thug actor thug
etc...
If not, what would be the proper use of dividers? |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | There has been a lot of debate about this and you will get different answers from different people. My opinion, your example does not qualify for dividers as those are group roles. What would qualify, again in my opinion, would be something like this:
Police Actor Detective Smith Actor Officer Jones Actor Officer Johnson
Firemen Actor Lt. Sampson Actor John Simmons | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
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Registered: May 19, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 585 |
| Posted: | | | | I agree with Unicus. Just because a section of roles are grouped, does not mean a divider should be used. You commonly see roles grouped as "Police" or "Reporters" or "FBI Agents" or what have you, but I don't think these qualify for dividers.
The use of dividers for cast should have a 2 part requirement.. meaning the roles has 2 parts to it, exactly has Unicus put in his example. You have 1 part which groups these particular people together then you have a 2nd part which is their actual role name. Further examples would be movies with ficticious bands or gangs and in the credits they show
Band Name Actor Jimmy Doe Actor Susie Smith Actor James John
or
Gang Name Actor Jimmy 'Tiny' Doe Actor John 'One Eye' Smith
Generally, if the actual film credits themselves do not separate with a divider then don't use a divider in DVDP.
If you want to see real examples, check out Purple Rain (085391139829), Apocalypto (786936705089), and The Hunt For Red October (097363202073). | | | "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" - Douglas Bader "A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote: There has been a lot of debate about this and you will get different answers from different people. My opinion, your example does not qualify for dividers as those are group roles. What would qualify, again in my opinion, would be something like this:
Police Actor Detective Smith Actor Officer Jones Actor Officer Johnson
Firemen Actor Lt. Sampson Actor John Simmons I Agree with the Alien! | | | Pete |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 906 |
| Posted: | | | | In my opinion, dividers aren't for group roles at all. The only was I think it should be used is when you have different cast lists, like different soundtracks on animated features or to separate episodes or movies on the same side of the disc. Example: To separate the original voice actors and the English voice actors in the animated movie Spirited Away To separate the cast and crew for different short movies/cartoons like on the Walt Disney Treasures TV sets EDIT: The rules mentions the divider feature in two places. First under the credit section: Quote: Do not include artificial actor entries to act as separators between cast lists. (e.g. "--JAPANESE CAST--"), instead use the Divider feature for this. The under the TV series section Quote: Enter Cast and Crew for each episode using standard rules, and insert dividers to separate each episode's credit list from the others. Do not list Cast and Crew outside of the dividers even if they are credited in all episodes.
Enter the episode number and title in the divider that marks the beginning of that episode's credit list. The divider should be formatted as "1. Episode Title", or "Episode 1" if no title is available.
Take the episode title from the episode itself, or from elsewhere on the DVD or DVD packaging, exactly as shown. If all episode titles are entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead. If the episodes are listed with quotes around each title, exclude the quotes.
If the DVD or DVD packaging specifically numbers the episodes, use that number in the divider. Otherwise, episodes are to be numbered sequentially in the order that they appear on the DVD(s) in the set, with the number sequence carrying over from disc to disc. Do not number non-episodic features such as movies or alternate cuts unless they are given specific numbers on the DVD or DVD packaging. The rules doesn't mention group roles at all | | | The colour of her eyes, were the colour of insanity | | | Last edited: by reybr |
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| T!M | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 8,736 |
| Posted: | | | | Reybr's message highlights something that I feel is a big problem. Personally, I only use dividers in situations as descrived by Unicus69. Despite that, I've received no-votes for both using dividers, and for not using them! Users who share reybr's point of view will often vote against any form of divider for group roles, while others who feel CharlieM's example calls for the use of a divider will vote against a cast update not using them. In the smaller localities where non-blockbuster-profiles will often only get a few votes, these votes often have quite a lot of impact, and the rules offer no real support either way. I truly hope this will be clarified somehow. |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 2,366 |
| Posted: | | | | I think the program should support two kind of dividers which has been requested here and which would allow cast to be divided in both episode/cast lists and group roles. That way we could also create groups if these are used in different episodes or casts. Plus it would make users on both side of the fence happy. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands | | | Last edited: by Daddy DVD |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,759 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting reybr: Quote: In my opinion, dividers aren't for group roles at all. The only was I think it should be used is when you have different cast lists, like different soundtracks on animated features or to separate episodes or movies on the same side of the disc. I completely agree! Dividers and group roles are completely different animals. Dividers are not connected to the following credits. Therefore you loose them in some situations (e.g. when you click on an actor and show the list of films he's playing in). And there are no end group markers. Therefore you would have to abuse an empty divider for this. Sorting a credit list by name is also not possible if you abuse dividers for group roles. |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 906 |
| Posted: | | | | Totally agree with you Martin. Some program development from Ken could solve this easily There were rumours back in March/April that Ken looked at making a different kind of divider for group roles. Haven't seen anything more about it though. EDIT: I took a quick search through the rules forum and found this poll. Take it for what it's worth | | | The colour of her eyes, were the colour of insanity | | | Last edited: by reybr |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 2,366 |
| Posted: | | | | I do not have access to the Contribution Rules Committee, so I can not see any poll... | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 465 |
| Posted: | | | | I'm a strong supporter of using dividers for group roles. I don't care if they're not explicitly allowed in the rules since they are not forbidden, either.
As I see it, they definitely fit to the "as credited" philosophy. If there's a header in the cast list, I see absolutely no reason not to reflect this in the profile. Besides, these dividers make the list look clearly arranged. | | | Michael |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,804 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Martin_Zuidervliet: Quote: I do not have access to the Contribution Rules Committee, so I can not see any poll... I do not have access to this as well - maybe somebody could post the results here in a public forum! I have to agree to TigiHof that the dividers make the cast clearly arranged! IMHO this is a very acceptable procedure of using dividers! | | | Thorsten |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 20,111 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Martin_Zuidervliet: Quote: I think the program should support two kind of dividers which has been requested here and which would allow cast to be divided in both episode/cast lists and group roles. That way we could also create groups if these are used in different episodes or casts. Plus it would make users on both side of the fence happy. I agree. Quoting Martin_Zuidervliet: Quote: I do not have access to the Contribution Rules Committee, so I can not see any poll... Just request access to it Martin, it's simple. | | | Corey |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 906 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting kahless: Quote: I do not have access to this as well - maybe somebody could post the results here in a public forum! Should We Use Dividers as "Group Role Descriptions" Yes (13) No (18) Something Else (please describe in a post) (3) This Poll is Moot (3) Quoting kahless: Quote: I have to agree to TigiHof that the dividers make the cast clearly arranged! That's a matter of personal preference. I don't think it makes the profile any more clear at all. Especially not in cases where you have a group, then normal cast and then a group again. To me that looks messy (But that's me) | | | The colour of her eyes, were the colour of insanity | | | Last edited: by reybr |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting reybr: Quote: Quoting kahless:
Quote: I have to agree to TigiHof that the dividers make the cast clearly arranged! That's a matter of personal preference. I don't think it makes the profile any more clear at all. Especially not in cases where you have a group, then normal cast and then a group again. Too me that looks messy (But that's me) I agree, I think it looks messy and I don't think it follows 'as credited'. Group roles are just that, roles for a group of people. It is, in my opinion, done simply for convenience. For me, dividers should only be used when the cast is actually divided...as they are in the examples given above. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | I have to say... I also agree that it looks awful messy as well. Also agree that in my opinion... dividers should only be used when the cast is actually divided. | | | Pete |
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