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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,694 |
| Posted: | | | | Two people have voted NO on my 'Shane' contribution because they say I should've listed the part of Wilson as [Walter Jack Palance (Jack Palance)], with common name, etc.
1. The original profile wrongly listed that role as being played by 'Jack Palance' with no common name at all. (Also the way IMDB listed it by the way)
2. I listed the name exactly as it appeared in the credits, no more, no less.
3. The common name/credited as function is not complete, therefore I am under no obligation to utilize it, because I will not be the arbiter of what constitutes the common name. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964 Make America Great Again! |
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Registered: March 24, 2007 | Posts: 179 |
| Posted: | | | | If this profile gets rejected for that reason( you know it won't) you should make a public plea for said no voters to have their voting rights revoked. You clearly followed the rules. The NO voters have abused their voting rights. Take pride in your work and thanks for the effort. | | | Brian |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,372 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting BYATES1: Quote: If this profile gets rejected for that reason( you know it won't) you should make a public plea for said no voters to have their voting rights revoked. You clearly followed the rules. The NO voters have abused their voting rights. Take pride in your work and thanks for the effort. I disagree (but only because it's Rifter and I always disagree with Rifter and Skip ) The voter are 100% in their right to vote no on this. Jack Palance went by Walter Jack Palance for a couple of movies at the VERY early stage of his career. His common name is Jack Palance. I'm not saying Rifter has to submit it using the as credited feature (although it would be nice) but the NO voters are well within their rights to vote that way. Let the vote stand. If the screeners agree with your submission, no problem. If they don't it will be rejected. Not sure why you're bringing it here. We know you don't want to use the feature. NO votes should be expected from those who do use the feature, especially on a name that is so easily proven. Evenr TCMDB shows his common name as Jack Palance. Again, not attacking your submission even though I don't agree with it but to say the no voters do not have the right to vote NO because you don't want to use the function is wrong. (IMO) | | | Last edited: by lyonsden5 |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 519 |
| Posted: | | | | Just resubmit with the common name included or let the screeners decide. The voters are backed up by the rules: Quote: Use the "As Credited" field where the person's name differs from the credited name. What's the big deal? | | | Stuart | | | Last edited: by Gadgeteer |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,694 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting lyonsden5: Quote: Quoting BYATES1:
Quote: If this profile gets rejected for that reason( you know it won't) you should make a public plea for said no voters to have their voting rights revoked. You clearly followed the rules. The NO voters have abused their voting rights. Take pride in your work and thanks for the effort.
I disagree (but only because it's Rifter and I always disagree with Rifter and Skip )
The voter are 100% in their right to vote no on this. Jack Palance went by Walter Jack Palance for a couple of movies at the VERY early stage of his career. His common name is Jack Palance.
I'm not saying Rifter has to submit it using the as credited feature (although it would be nice) but the NO voters are well within their rights to vote that way.
Let the vote stand. If the screeners agree with your submission, no problem. If they don't it will be rejected.
Not sure why you're bringing it here. We know you don't want to use the feature. NO votes should be expected from those who do use the feature, especially on a name that is so easily proven. Evenr TCMDB shows his common name as Jack Palance.
Again, not attacking your submission even though I don't agree with it but to say the no voters do not have the right to vote NO because you don't want to use the function is wrong. (IMO) This is another of the things I predicted would happen with this. I have followed the rules to the letter as they stand. Yet I am being penalized by following the rules by some voters because they insist on using a feature that isn't fully functional. If I can't send up a profile under the rules without getting dinged then MY rights as a DVDP user are being violated. You may or may not remember me saying this, but I did. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964 Make America Great Again! |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,372 |
| Posted: | | | | someone voting NO is not does not penalize you. The common name function is there and people use it. If they want to vote no it is their right. The voters could argue the same thing, your submitting data that doesn't use the function is penalizing them. Ken himself said a "no vote is not the end of the world" They look at many things. Just leave it, or pull it. Your choice. Personally I would leave it. It's funny, I checked 3 Shane profiles in the Db he is credited 3 different ways curious though, why not just change it to common name in this case. He is not an obscure actor. A common name should be very easy to determine and properly source. How bout if I find the sources for you, would you change it then? |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,480 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote: 3. The common name/credited as function is not complete, therefore I am under no obligation to utilize it. This is a logical fallacy. The first statement is debatable. I contend that it's spin by the anti-'credited as' argument to undermine a working feature of the program that they don't like. To conclude anything from a false statement is...false. I consulted with Ken during the Maid in Manhattan fiasco and he said it was ok for me to vote 'no' based on the rule that Stuart/Gadgeteer has just quoted. I don't vote that way anymore because Invelos doesn't always follow through with support for that rule. Sometimes they do; sometimes they don't. I previously attempted an audit of Shane with 'credited as' data; however, I pulled it when I encountered opposition from the anti-'credited as' folks. I haven't voted on your contribution because my audit differs from yours. I need to double-check that before I vote. Thanks for the reminder. Until the situation is clarified to the satisfaction of the anti-'credited as' crowd, we're going to continue to have battles between the 2 camps and both sides will feel justified and Invelos will side with one group on some contributions and the other group on other contributions. It's just the way it is around here. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 813 |
| Posted: | | | | I agree the votes are completely legal.
But, either way the contribution should be voted down due to the removal of all the uncredited people. Rifter claims that they are a exact copy of IMDb, which is not the case. IMDb does include the roles that are in DVDP (with one slight change that I pressume is due to DVDP field length), but also some other roles - so not an exact copy. | | | Andy
"Credited as" Names Database | | | Last edited: by Lopek |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,372 |
| Posted: | | | | I've just spent the last 15 minutes looking for interviews, obituaries, etc and I can't find one source that lists him as anything but Jack Palance. |
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Registered: March 24, 2007 | Posts: 179 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting lyonsden5: Quote: Quoting BYATES1:
Quote: If this profile gets rejected for that reason( you know it won't) you should make a public plea for said no voters to have their voting rights revoked. You clearly followed the rules. The NO voters have abused their voting rights. Take pride in your work and thanks for the effort.
I disagree (but only because it's Rifter and I always disagree with Rifter and Skip )
The voter are 100% in their right to vote no on this. Jack Palance went by Walter Jack Palance for a couple of movies at the VERY early stage of his career. His common name is Jack Palance.
I'm not saying Rifter has to submit it using the as credited feature (although it would be nice) but the NO voters are well within their rights to vote that way.
Let the vote stand. If the screeners agree with your submission, no problem. If they don't it will be rejected.
Not sure why you're bringing it here. We know you don't want to use the feature. NO votes should be expected from those who do use the feature, especially on a name that is so easily proven. Evenr TCMDB shows his common name as Jack Palance.
Again, not attacking your submission even though I don't agree with it but to say the no voters do not have the right to vote NO because you don't want to use the function is wrong. (IMO) This was all I could find about Ken addressing the issue. Quoting Ken Cole: Quote:
When I considered options for resolving name linking issues due to variations in how cast and crew are credited, there were two main candidates - the credited as system in use today, and a linking system. Linking works well with name variations but doesn't work well with one-off credits, and complicates the birth year solution to credit uniqueness. On the other hand, the credited as solution requires consistency in the common name to work well.
There seems to be much duress over determining the "correct" common name for each cast/crew member, when in fact what is needed is merely consistency. I've prepared an online lookup that will allow searching the global cast and crew databases to determine the more common credited as name. Note that whether or not credited as field is currently used as intended, the lookup will remain valid as long as the cast/crew entries follow the credited as standard. Importantly, changing the common name for particular DVDs to align with the most common credited as field will have no effect on the lookup.
Before I roll out the lookup functionality, I want to make sure that this solution is workable to the community. Pick it apart, tear into it, I'm thick skinned.
| | | Brian |
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Registered: March 18, 2007 | Posts: 130 |
| Posted: | | | | I voted no for a very simple reason, Jack Palance on the majority of his films used Jack Palance, when He received the Academy Award his name of Jack Palance was read. We have the credited as to help consolidate the names field for name searches in the data base. It makes very good sense to use the credited as feature so he is not listed under two names when you want to search his name in the database. I voted for this reason and not to be mean spirited. How have I abused the rules or the submittor and why would you want to have my rights taken away? Tom |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,494 |
| Posted: | | | | Sorry John but that on screen name of Walter Jack Palance can be credited as Jack Palance in the cast profile. I have done this numerous times with names, like Francis Ford Coppola where in some movies he is only known on sceen as Francis Coppola . | | | In the 60's, People took Acid to make the world Weird. Now the World is weird and People take Prozac to make it Normal.
Terry | | | Last edited: by widescreenforever |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,022 |
| Posted: | | | | The key for me is whether John would vote no if another user subsequently did an audit on the title and used the 'credited as' feature, assuming his original audit is accepted? My understanding of John's position would be that he would vote neutral. IMO John has not done anything incorrect, the credit was wrong in the database in the first place. He is not removing a 'credited as' listing. Another user can simply add this 'credited as' listing at a later stage.
Whether there are other reasons in the audit to vote no, that is an entirely different subject. | | | |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,759 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting richierich: Quote: The key for me is whether John would vote no if another user subsequently did an audit on the title and used the 'credited as' feature, assuming his original audit is accepted? My understanding of John's position would be that he would vote neutral. IMO John has not done anything incorrect, the credit was wrong in the database in the first place. He is not removing a 'credited as' listing. Another user can simply add this 'credited as' listing at a later stage.
Whether there are other reasons in the audit to vote no, that is an entirely different subject. I agree! |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 1,777 |
| Posted: | | | | I ended up voting for this primarily because there seems to be some controversy regarding "credited as" and somebody flat got the credit wrong. At the end of the day though, I know it's going to make me crazy to filter for Jack Palance and discover that "Shane" is not among the movies he starred in. Sort of takes all the usefulness right out of the database. | | | Last edited: by mdnitoil |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,694 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Lopek: Quote: I agree the votes are completely legal.
But, either way the contribution should be voted down due to the removal of all the uncredited people. Rifter claims that they are a exact copy of IMDb, which is not the case. IMDb does include the roles that are in DVDP (with one slight change that I pressume is due to DVDP field length), but also some other roles - so not an exact copy. All that uncredited stuff is BS and you know it. It's a goddamn travesty to have 12 cast members that appear in the credits and then hang twice that many uncredited entries on it. The previous profiles did not document those entries, and the cast list on IMDB is close enough to what I removed that typos could account for the differences. In any case, it isn't the exact letter by letter, mark by mark stuff that counts, its the layout, the spelling, the order, the phraseology, and so on. Any reasonable person can see that those entries came straight from IMDB or one of its clones. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964 Make America Great Again! |
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