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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Vol. 1 + Box base profile poll |
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| Registered: March 16, 2007 |  Posts: 280 |
| | Posted: | | | | The question for this poll is: How should the base profile for DVDs that are sold as Vol 1 + Box be entered?
Dfn: The "base profile" is the profile that is constructed for the UPC of the product. This product package is often advertised as something like "Series volume 1 + box, limited/special edition", or "Series volume 1 with limited/special edition collector's box", which may or may not match what's on the package itself.
If you vote for "Other", please specify the method you propose, even if it's just to agree with a previous proposal.
This poll is not about which data should or should not be included in the base profile of your choice unless you're using that to explain why you support a specific choice. Further discussion on those issues can be argued once this one is resolved.
The results of this poll may involve a rule change, but most likely just a clarification in the writing of the rules. Any supporting arguments that rely in how the rules are written should try to minimize the amount of rewriting that would be necessary, if any.
I am placing it in the Contributions forum because, as we saw in the previous poll, there do not appear to be enough people in the Rules Committee forum who deal with this type of product to be able to get a solid consensus. I will place my own arguments in a followup post. This post will be edited to clarify any issues with the poll itself.
Edit: Conditions for closing.
The poll will be considered closed and resolved after one week of voting if the vote tallies are statistically differentiable at the 95% confidence level, and one of the options has the majority of the votes. If that cannot be done after one week, the poll will be held open for an additional week, at the end of which an option with at least 60% of the total vote will be considered the 'winner'. If neither option achieves that vote total, the poll will be closed as unresolved.
To be statistically differentiable, the vote spread must be at least twice the margin of error for the total vote count. For example, with 25 votes the margin of error would be 20%, or 5 votes. Therefore the vote spread would need to be at least 10 votes (at least 18-7) to be considered resolved.
Note that I'll be out of town at the time this will have been open for a week, so if someone else wishes to make note of the 'winner' (if any), they are free to do so. I'll make a followup note when I get back. | | | | Last edited: by Kinematics |
| | Registered: March 16, 2007 | | Posts: 280 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'm going to be arguing in favor of entering Vol 1 + Box with the box as the base profile. First I'm going to follow the logic given the current set of rules: 1) Quote:
The covers must match the profile exactly, including the UPC and locality. The UPC of the product package is almost always on the box itself, and is not on the DVD cover. The DVD cover uses the same UPC as that used by the individually sold version (rare exceptions include a lack of UPC on the keepcase cover at all). 2) The title should include the descriptors specified on the cover (the disc "name" in anime series). The cover as shown for the UPC entry in question is of the box. The box shows the series name and, possibly, "Limited Edition Collector's Box" or variants such as "Shrine Box". Thus the title of the entry would be something like "Kamichu: Shrine Box", and not "Kamichu: Vol. 1: Little Deity". If you did use the title as shown on the keepcase cover, it would not include anything along the lines of "Limited Edition" because the DVD itself is no different from the standalone version. The "edition" is the packaging around it, specifically designed as a means of storing the series as a box set. 3) With the UPC, cover, title and edition all specified per the box, the box becomes the primary component of the profile. Next I want to note that the 'intent' of the box is to be the basis for a box set. Whether or not the remainder of the series is purchased, the box itself is no different from that of any other accepted box set within profiler. Further, a Box Set profile is a structural entity; it is designed as a means to collect and consolidate data from many discs at a single point. The actual use of DVDProfiler shows that people expect to be able to mark all the additional disc profiles for the series as child profilers of the vol 1 + box entry. As it stands now, this leads to either the standalone being entered as a child of a volume 1 entry, or volumes 2-6 (or whatever) being marked as children of volume 1. Neither of those options is structurally sound, but the data is accepted because there's no other way to do it. The problem stems from users wanting to be able to treat the entries within DVD Profiler the same way they treat the actual, physical object: as a box set. They want a logical, 1-to-1 mapping between reality and its digital representation. As far as I can tell, the only part of the rules that is a stumbling block is the definition: Quote:
The term "Box Set" is used to define any release that includes more than one film. Yet at the same time, the rules for TV series allow for titling based on whether the series is a "Box Set". The Box Set rules do not require a minimum number of discs (one of the examples includes a single double-sided disc). As such we are left with "film" undefined anywhere in the rules, but apparently inclusive of TV episodes. However that is another debate altogether Instead, I'll put down a hypothetical: If a box came with two movies and space for four more, but sold those other four movies separately, is it still a Box Set? What changes when you take one of those first two movies out that causes it to no longer be a box set, even if you buy the other movies later? Does the packaging not matter? If you receive a stack of 6 loose keepcases with a UPC sticker on top, is it still a box set? While I don't think anything actually need to be changed to support using the box as the base profile entry, I'd suggest a rewrite of the Box Set definition to show how it applies to a database entry, as opposed to a physical sale: A Box Set is a profile entry for a purchased product designed to hold (whether at initial purchase or over time) and link together multiple other Profiler entries. |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 |  Posts: 55 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kinematics: Quote:
1)
Quote:
The covers must match the profile exactly, including the UPC and locality.
The UPC of the product package is almost always on the box itself, and is not on the DVD cover. The DVD cover uses the same UPC as that used by the individually sold version (rare exceptions include a lack of UPC on the keepcase cover at all).
2) The title should include the descriptors specified on the cover (the disc "name" in anime series). The cover as shown for the UPC entry in question is of the box. The box shows the series name and, possibly, "Limited Edition Collector's Box" or variants such as "Shrine Box". Thus the title of the entry would be something like "Kamichu: Shrine Box", and not "Kamichu: Vol. 1: Little Deity". If you did use the title as shown on the keepcase cover, it would not include anything along the lines of "Limited Edition" because the DVD itself is no different from the standalone version. The "edition" is the packaging around it, specifically designed as a means of storing the series as a box set. I agree. Quoting Kinematics: Quote:
3) With the UPC, cover, title and edition all specified per the box, the box becomes the primary component of the profile. Which is wrong as this program is for profiling DVDs not packaging. Quoting Kinematics: Quote:
Next I want to note that the 'intent' of the box is to be the basis for a box set. Whether or not the remainder of the series is purchased, the box itself is no different from that of any other accepted box set within profiler.
Further, a Box Set profile is a structural entity; it is designed as a means to collect and consolidate data from many discs at a single point. The actual use of DVDProfiler shows that people expect to be able to mark all the additional disc profiles for the series as child profilers of the vol 1 + box entry. As it stands now, this leads to either the standalone being entered as a child of a volume 1 entry, or volumes 2-6 (or whatever) being marked as children of volume 1. Neither of those options is structurally sound, but the data is accepted because there's no other way to do it.
The problem stems from users wanting to be able to treat the entries within DVD Profiler the same way they treat the actual, physical object: as a box set. They want a logical, 1-to-1 mapping between reality and its digital representation. This is the same as the confusion between case type of boxset and profile type of box set they are not the same thing. You can have a box set inside a keep case so why not a single release inside a box? Quoting Kinematics: Quote:
As far as I can tell, the only part of the rules that is a stumbling block is the definition:
Quote:
The term "Box Set" is used to define any release that includes more than one film.
Yet at the same time, the rules for TV series allow for titling based on whether the series is a "Box Set". The Box Set rules do not require a minimum number of discs (one of the examples includes a single double-sided disc). As such we are left with "film" undefined anywhere in the rules, but apparently inclusive of TV episodes. However that is another debate altogether That would make them TV episode anthology discs and still doesn't mean they have to be box sets. |
| | Registered: March 16, 2007 | | Posts: 280 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Blueloopstah: Quote:
Quoting Kinematics:
Quote:
3) With the UPC, cover, title and edition all specified per the box, the box becomes the primary component of the profile.
Which is wrong as this program is for profiling DVDs not packaging.
If that were truly the case, then we should not have any sort of Box Set profiles in the program at all. Edit: Well, actually that's not entirely true; there would still be a few cases that would qualify. However it would eliminate most of the current box sets if the above stance were enforced. Quoting Blueloopstah: Quote:
Quoting Kinematics:
Quote:
Next I want to note that the 'intent' of the box is to be the basis for a box set. Whether or not the remainder of the series is purchased, the box itself is no different from that of any other accepted box set within profiler.
Further, a Box Set profile is a structural entity; it is designed as a means to collect and consolidate data from many discs at a single point. The actual use of DVDProfiler shows that people expect to be able to mark all the additional disc profiles for the series as child profilers of the vol 1 + box entry. As it stands now, this leads to either the standalone being entered as a child of a volume 1 entry, or volumes 2-6 (or whatever) being marked as children of volume 1. Neither of those options is structurally sound, but the data is accepted because there's no other way to do it.
The problem stems from users wanting to be able to treat the entries within DVD Profiler the same way they treat the actual, physical object: as a box set. They want a logical, 1-to-1 mapping between reality and its digital representation.
This is the same as the confusion between case type of boxset and profile type of box set they are not the same thing. You can have a box set inside a keep case so why not a single release inside a box? Well, we sort of have that issue with full season sets (eg: Buffy, ST: Voyager, etc) which are currently treated as a single profile entry (ie: a "single release"). Yet people are continuing to argue in favor of child profiles for those sets, which would turn them into Box Set profiles. Also, I'm not so much arguing about case type as I am about database structure and program use. Quoting Blueloopstah: Quote:
Quoting Kinematics:
Quote:
As far as I can tell, the only part of the rules that is a stumbling block is the definition:
Quote:
The term "Box Set" is used to define any release that includes more than one film.
Yet at the same time, the rules for TV series allow for titling based on whether the series is a "Box Set". The Box Set rules do not require a minimum number of discs (one of the examples includes a single double-sided disc). As such we are left with "film" undefined anywhere in the rules, but apparently inclusive of TV episodes. However that is another debate altogether
That would make them TV episode anthology discs and still doesn't mean they have to be box sets. I'm just pointing out that there are ambiguities within the current definition of Box Set due to "film" being undefined. I don't want to start a debate on that since I think it would be better to rewrite the definition for Box Set to remove the term entirely and thus avoid the confusion. | | | | Last edited: by Kinematics |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,694 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kinematics: Quote:
Quoting Blueloopstah:
Quote:
Quoting Kinematics:
Quote:
3) With the UPC, cover, title and edition all specified per the box, the box becomes the primary component of the profile.
Which is wrong as this program is for profiling DVDs not packaging.
If that were truly the case, then we should not have any sort of Box Set profiles in the program at all.
Edit: Well, actually that's not entirely true; there would still be a few cases that would qualify. However it would eliminate most of the current box sets if the above stance were enforced.
Quoting Blueloopstah:
Quote:
Quoting Kinematics:
Quote:
Next I want to note that the 'intent' of the box is to be the basis for a box set. Whether or not the remainder of the series is purchased, the box itself is no different from that of any other accepted box set within profiler.
Further, a Box Set profile is a structural entity; it is designed as a means to collect and consolidate data from many discs at a single point. The actual use of DVDProfiler shows that people expect to be able to mark all the additional disc profiles for the series as child profilers of the vol 1 + box entry. As it stands now, this leads to either the standalone being entered as a child of a volume 1 entry, or volumes 2-6 (or whatever) being marked as children of volume 1. Neither of those options is structurally sound, but the data is accepted because there's no other way to do it.
The problem stems from users wanting to be able to treat the entries within DVD Profiler the same way they treat the actual, physical object: as a box set. They want a logical, 1-to-1 mapping between reality and its digital representation.
This is the same as the confusion between case type of boxset and profile type of box set they are not the same thing. You can have a box set inside a keep case so why not a single release inside a box?
Well, we sort of have that issue with full season sets (eg: Buffy, ST: Voyager, etc) which are currently treated as a single profile entry (ie: a "single release"). Yet people are continuing to argue in favor of child profiles for those sets, which would turn them into Box Set profiles. Also, I'm not so much arguing about case type as I am about database structure and program use.
Quoting Blueloopstah:
Quote:
Quoting Kinematics:
Quote:
As far as I can tell, the only part of the rules that is a stumbling block is the definition:
Quote:
The term "Box Set" is used to define any release that includes more than one film.
Yet at the same time, the rules for TV series allow for titling based on whether the series is a "Box Set". The Box Set rules do not require a minimum number of discs (one of the examples includes a single double-sided disc). As such we are left with "film" undefined anywhere in the rules, but apparently inclusive of TV episodes. However that is another debate altogether
That would make them TV episode anthology discs and still doesn't mean they have to be box sets.
I'm just pointing out that there are ambiguities within the current definition of Box Set due to "film" being undefined. I don't want to start a debate on that since I think it would be better to rewrite the definition for Box Set to remove the term entirely and thus avoid the confusion. Part of the problem here is that you're getting all wrapped around the axle on the definition of a box set and then misapplying it. There is no case type called a box set; a box set is a group of related discs, not a container. There are keep cases, digipacks, custom cases, etc., but what you are calling a 'box set' is in actuality a slip case or slip cover. The term 'box set' refers to fact that there are several movies or a number of episodes on X number of disks (housed in some sort of case) that comprise a TV season (Buffy for instance), or a group of related movies (The Indiana Jones Collection). In a box set, the master profile is created for the 'slip cover' using the UPC. Each disc then gets a profile using UPC/Disc ID as appropriate, and art work as appropriate. Then the child profiles are linked to the master by the Box Set Contents button. Btw, a film is a piece of video of length X. 'Film' is just a more formal term. The use of film is actually an anachronism in many ways, since most TV and a large percentage of movies are shot directly on digital video now - no film involved. So, the length is immaterial, and a 'film' can be a 20 min short, a cartoon, a weekly TV episode, or a feature length movie, etc. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again! | | | | Last edited: by Rifter |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Posts: 55 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote:
The term 'box set' refers to fact that there are several movies or a number of episodes on X number of disks (housed in some sort of case) that comprise a TV season (Buffy for instance), or a group of related movies (The Indiana Jones Collection).
In a box set, the master profile is created for the 'slip cover' using the UPC. Each disc then gets a profile using UPC/Disc ID as appropriate, and art work as appropriate. Then the child profiles are linked to the master by the Box Set Contents button. I agree with this but you're the person arguing that a 1 disc release inside a box shaped slip cover should be classed as a box set in the profiler seeing as there are not X number of discs or movies included. Surely that contradicts your stance on how to profile vol x + box releases? |
| | Registered: March 16, 2007 | | Posts: 280 |
| | Posted: | | | | While I'm not sure who Rifter was referring to in his initial statement, we should at least work on clearing up the confusion of the terminology. As I see it, we have a few different instances of "box set": 1) Case Type. See the thread on case types and their pictures. This is not what most people think of when "box set" is referred to, and a Box Set (4) is usually considered to *not* have a "box set case type". To prevent confusion, this will instead be referred to as "slipcover case type". 2) Purchased product of (usually) multiple discs that come in an enclosure of some sort, typically a box. This can be referred to as a "purchased box set". 3) Database profile that makes use of the "Box Set Contents" field. This shall be referred to as a Box Set Profile. 4) Box Set as defined by the rules: The term "Box Set" is used to define any release that includes more than one film. Addendum: note capitalizations. When I refer to a "box set" in prior posts, I am usually referring to definition 3. In most standard cases, that is a direct database representation of definition 2, as interpreted through definition 4. Note that definition 4 refers to a purchased product, and is not indicative of what a Box Set Profile is within the program itself. The issue with Vol 1 + box is that it does not strictly fall under definitions 2/4 (as Blue points out, it only comes with a single disc) unless you allow for the ambiguity of the term "film" (see objections below). However, for it to make sense within the database structure, and allow for linking of related profiles, it could certainly fall under definition 3. The poll question is about treating it as a Box Set Profile because it can fit very well under definition 3 (especially in relation to the rest of the information that gets put in the profile, as I initially argued), and matches how users actually use the program. Quoting Rifter: Quote:
Btw, a film is a piece of video of length X. 'Film' is just a more formal term. The use of film is actually an anachronism in many ways, since most TV and a large percentage of movies are shot directly on digital video now - no film involved. So, the length is immaterial, and a 'film' can be a 20 min short, a cartoon, a weekly TV episode, or a feature length movie, etc. The reason I say that the term is ambiguous is because, going strictly by your definition, any single disc with multiple episodes of a show (ie: pretty much any anime series DVD) could be considered a Box Set (4) all on its own. "Obviously", that shouldn't be the case (due to how the database is structured). It's not that I think "film" needs a better definition, it's that I think it shouldn't be used as the basis for defining other terms within the rules unless it's just a global catch-all descriptor. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,694 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Blueloopstah: Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
The term 'box set' refers to fact that there are several movies or a number of episodes on X number of disks (housed in some sort of case) that comprise a TV season (Buffy for instance), or a group of related movies (The Indiana Jones Collection).
In a box set, the master profile is created for the 'slip cover' using the UPC. Each disc then gets a profile using UPC/Disc ID as appropriate, and art work as appropriate. Then the child profiles are linked to the master by the Box Set Contents button.
I agree with this but you're the person arguing that a 1 disc release inside a box shaped slip cover should be classed as a box set in the profiler seeing as there are not X number of discs or movies included.
Surely that contradicts your stance on how to profile vol x + box releases? Not at all. I recognize that the slip cover + 1st volume is intended to BE a box set. Look at it like this: The slip case and all the volumes left the manufacturer at the same time. Except for the box and first volume, the rest ran into trouble on the road, and won't be arriving until later.  | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again! |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Posts: 55 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kinematics: Quote:
The issue with Vol 1 + box is that it does not strictly fall under definitions 2/4 (as Blue points out, it only comes with a single disc) unless you allow for the ambiguity of the term "film" (see objections below). However, for it to make sense within the database structure, and allow for linking of related profiles, it could certainly fall under definition 3. The poll question is about treating it as a Box Set Profile because it can fit very well under definition 3 (especially in relation to the rest of the information that gets put in the profile, as I initially argued), and matches how users actually use the program.
Personally I have nothing against people adding the other discs to the vol x + box profile in their private database as long as they don't submit them to the online database. The only reason I'm against it is because people want to have a blank "box" profile under the vol x + box UPC and add the volume inside as a child profile while I think the "box" profile should match whatever volume is included in the box. | | | | Last edited: by Blueloopstah |
| | Registered: March 16, 2007 | | Posts: 280 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Blueloopstah: Quote:
The only reason I'm against it is because people want to have a blank "box" profile under the vol x + box UPC and add the volume inside as a child profile while I think the "box" profile should match whatever volume is included in the box. Well, since that's pretty much what the poll is asking, there's no need to further argue the issue. Also, I'm adding in the conditions for closing the poll in the top post. |
| | Registered: March 16, 2007 | | Posts: 280 |
| | Posted: | | | | Bumping for exposure, and hoping the poll will at least pass 20 votes. Also wondering if I need to consider revising how long to hold the poll open for, considering how quickly threads can fall off the front page and get forgotten. |
| | Registered: March 26, 2007 | | Posts: 5 |
| | Posted: | | | | Well I'm going to vote for option 1, for the primary reason that the "Box Set Profile" is not a release consisting of a single "film" plus a "box", but is a collection of "films". The distinction being that the Vol 1 + Box configuration represents a part of a Box Set.
The "Vol. 1 + Box" is not a "film", nor is it a "Box Set", what it is is a marketing/sales device that provides a way for a consumer to obtain the first volume (or sometimes the last volume) and the box, but without purchasing the entire set at once (usually because the entire set is not yet available).
Since I can't get to the Invelos contribution rules yet, I'm citing the IVS ones, for titles there is the following rule:
"Never add distinguishing factors to the title (such as "Widescreen" or "Special Edition"). Use the Description field for these."
I'd call "Vol. 1 + Box" a "distinguishing factor" not part of the title.
And more importantly:
"The title for a Box Set should be the title listed on the front cover, for example Alien Quadrilogy"
The title on the front cover of the item who's UPC is used to generate the profile doesn't contain "Vol. 1 + Box" or anything similar.
Lets take for example a somewhat recent Vol. 1 + Box release: Full Metal Panic: The Second Raid (it was handy). It was your traditional Vol. 1 + Box release, but if you search around, you'll find that there's no consistency to the naming of this particular release, where I purchased it it's called "Full Metal Panic! The Second Raid DVD 1 (Hyb) + Artbox", other retailers called it a "Starter Set", etc.
But what's actually contained in it? Two things (titles directly from packaging):
Full Metal Panic: The Second Raid: Tactical Ops 01 (UPC: 04400 08531 - the DVD/film)
Full Metal Panic: The Second Raid (UPC: 04400 08530 - the box)
A couple things to note, first the lack of the "Vol. 1 + Box" anywhere on either of these. Second, the UPC/packaging of the film is identical to that of the film purchased without the box. If anything, this should really be Box w/ Vol.1 as looking up the UPC on the box is the unique identifier (the UPC on the film is the same whether you purchase the film alone or with the box.
But I guess most of all, it just comes down to consistency. For "box sets" purchased all at once, you have a "box" containing multiple "films", and in the database you have a "Box Set Profile" and child profiles for each film.
The only thing different about this situation is that the box is released separate from some of the contained "films", but those films are still part of the set, they are just released over time, not all at once. These are no different than "standard" box sets, except that the contents have a staggered release.
After all, we're tracking films/sets, not the method in which they are released. |
| | Registered: March 16, 2007 | | Posts: 280 |
| | Posted: | | | | Back from my trip, so wanted to mark this poll as closed. The verdict seems to solidly be that box + vol 1 should be entered as a box set profile with a child link to the volume 1 profile entry.* I would suggest that when the wording is added to the rules that it be described as a partial box set, since the box can come with various volumes of the entire set.
Ken, please note this as a voted recommendation.
I'll be making a new poll on how much of the entire set info should be included in the box set profile.
* for reference: Margin of error at 24%, or 4.1 votes. Vote spread between yes and no is 12, which can be considered statistically differentiable.
Edit for record: Vote totals at 19-2-0-3 | | | | Last edited: by Kinematics |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Posts: 55 |
| | Posted: | | | | I can live with that as it means I get to have both the box art and the volume X art as well!  For the new vote I would suggest (a) all data for the entire series including episodic cast lists like any other TV series collection (b) only data for the volume included in the original puschase of the box (c) No data about anything but the extra's included in the box and a video entry as it can't be omitted. (d) who cares it's only anime! I've just finished stripping my boxes of numbers and childrenising the volume 1's into them. As soon as the rule goes through I can go alter all the box titles to what it says on the box (maybe some pretty new scans as well if needed) | | | | Last edited: by Blueloopstah |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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