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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,197 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting bob9000: Quote: So bottom line is that there is no accurate way to determine this. If all BDinfo does is read the flag whcih may or may not be accurate then why are we using it as a source to backup changes to audio tracks? Well, I think we can at least conclude now that BDInfo reads the flag correctly. Which means that's how it's been encoded on the disc. And the disc should be our "authoritative source for information submitted", as the rules put it. To me it's a bit like meticulously copying the spelling mistakes from the overview or the film credits. No matter if it's wrong, it's right. | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 844 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Kinoniki: Quote: To me it's a bit like meticulously copying the spelling mistakes from the overview or the film credits. No matter if it's wrong, it's right. you may have a point |
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Registered: May 8, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,945 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Kinoniki: Quote: Quoting bob9000:
Quote: So bottom line is that there is no accurate way to determine this. If all BDinfo does is read the flag whcih may or may not be accurate then why are we using it as a source to backup changes to audio tracks?
Well, I think we can at least conclude now that BDInfo reads the flag correctly. Which means that's how it's been encoded on the disc. And the disc should be our "authoritative source for information submitted", as the rules put it. To me it's a bit like meticulously copying the spelling mistakes from the overview or the film credits. No matter if it's wrong, it's right. Well said Donnie | | | www.tvmaze.com |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 5,734 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Lewpy: Quote: 1) Take the Audio from the rear cover, as the rules state ["Use the Audio specified on the DVD Cover"] 2) Use a method to check the encoding (without actually listening) 3) Listen and analyse the output audio to determine accurate audio channel information ...
As long as the method of determining the audio is documented in the Contribution Notes ["When contributing accurate, DVD based Audio, include your verification method in your Contribution Notes"], then future contributors and voters can decided if future contributions contains more accurate information. I agree. | | | Don't confuse while the film is playing with when the film is played. [Ken Cole, DVD Profiler Architect] |
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| T!M | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 8,736 |
| Posted: | | | | Option #3 is, however, always a dangerous one, because certain receivers can create "fake" surround from even a completely straightforward mono track. I've seen pretty prominent users trying to make blatantly incorrect changes based on the misunderstanding that "I hear something, so it must be surround". Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that. |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 5,734 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting DarklyNoon: Quote: All of us here think the tool is doing correct work and Forget The rest checked many changes with his receiver and confirmed all changes are correct. Also if you would have read the thread closely, bbbbb has checked the BDInfo Tool with 2 other programs, and ALL reults exactly matched. The screeners seem to agree with us too, as my contributions are getting approved, so did katatonias and bbbbb's. I'm aware that the tools (only) check the flag. They do it reliably. The stereo or surround flag is an objective information directly from the disc, testable by everybody, everybody will have the same result. If somebody claims the flag to be wrong because he analyzed the phase difference with his x-year-old ears at his amplifier model-y, well, I might listen. Of 20 B-rDs with DD 2.0 tracks I tested BDInfo showed a different format than in the respective profile 19 times. (*) 1 profile had the DD 2.0 flag right, well tested by the former contributor or pure luck? In that profile one audio track was missing completely, so not well tested. (*) That I got no no-vote yet but 425 yes-votes could mean: the community thinks capturing the flag is enough accuracy; or analyzing the flag is more than we usually did before; or that all these tracks were flagged correctly. | | | Don't confuse while the film is playing with when the film is played. [Ken Cole, DVD Profiler Architect] |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 5,734 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting schaumi: Quote: Or did I misunderstand something? Even though it is an obviousness for you now, this must not apply for every user. That's the reason why topics are recurring. For you seem to have a special interest in sound related issues: Isn't there a software that analyzes the phase differences? Like the PAS Surround Meter or something like that? | | | Don't confuse while the film is playing with when the film is played. [Ken Cole, DVD Profiler Architect] |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 5,734 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote: Option #3 is, however, always a dangerous one, because certain receivers can create "fake" surround from even a completely straightforward mono track. I've seen pretty prominent users trying to make blatantly incorrect changes based on the misunderstanding that "I hear something, so it must be surround". Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that. You aren't talking about hypothesis but practice. Then option #1 is also often a difficult one because the format of commentary tracks is virtually never stated. So step #2 (check how the audio tracks are encoded on the disc) seems more and more to be a very solid starting point. | | | Don't confuse while the film is playing with when the film is played. [Ken Cole, DVD Profiler Architect] |
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| T!M | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 8,736 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting bbbbb: Quote: So step #2 (check how the audio tracks are encoded on the disc) seems more and more to be a very solid starting point. I agree. |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,197 |
| Posted: | | | | You have of course the choice, in the absence of information or the tools necessary to perform the check , to not state the format of the commentary tracks when submitting a new profile. Just leave the last field blank after Commentary. That would be my first option, and it would also indicate to the next person looking at the profile that the format has not been checked. | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 | | | Last edited: by Nexus the Sixth |
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Registered: December 10, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,004 |
| Posted: | | | | Do any of you who can check this have True Blood Season 1? It says the Spanish track is Dolby surround in DTS. I'm curious as to whether DTS has a flag for this. |
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Registered: June 5, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 93 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote: Do any of you who can check this have True Blood Season 1? It says the Spanish track is Dolby surround in DTS. I'm curious as to whether DTS has a flag for this. DTS doesn't need such a flag, as it is a purely digital format. It does use matrixing of channels in the -ES formats, but it was never available as a purely analogue format. Dolby only has that flag to support/identify its analogue format that is being encoded in the digital stream. The full name for basic DTS is "DTS Digital Surround" (lower case "dts" in the logo"), so the use of "Surround" could be confusing. It may just refer to a standard 5.1 track. But a check of the disk would be good | | | You can download higher resolution versions of any of my cover scans from here |
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Registered: December 10, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,004 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Lewpy: Quote: DTS doesn't need such a flag, as it is a purely digital format. It does use matrixing of channels in the -ES formats, but it was never available as a purely analogue format. Dolby only has that flag to support/identify its analogue format that is being encoded in the digital stream. The full name for basic DTS is "DTS Digital Surround" (lower case "dts" in the logo"), so the use of "Surround" could be confusing. It may just refer to a standard 5.1 track. But a check of the disk would be good I don't follow. Dolby Digital is also a purely digital format. Everything on DVD or Blu-ray is digital. The flag is just to let the audio equipment know whether the 2.0 encode is supposed to be decoded as surround. It specifically says DTS 2.0 surround for the Spanish, as opposed to DTS 5.1 for the French. |
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Registered: June 5, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 93 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote: I don't follow. Dolby Digital is also a purely digital format. Everything on DVD or Blu-ray is digital. The flag is just to let the audio equipment know whether the 2.0 encode is supposed to be decoded as surround. It specifically says DTS 2.0 surround for the Spanish, as opposed to DTS 5.1 for the French. What the Surround flag in the Dolby Digital stream tells the amplified is that there is Dolby Pro Logic analogue-encoded content in the audio channels. The amplifier can then switch in the decoder for this older, analogue format and retrieve the matrixed channels. Now, someone could encode Dolby Pro Logic audio in to a DTS Digital Surround stream, but DTS do not provide a flag to signify that to an amplifier: there was no equivalent "DTS Pro Logic" analogue format. They would just expect the stream to be de-matrixed before encoding it in DTS, so each channel is discrete. | | | You can download higher resolution versions of any of my cover scans from here |
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Registered: December 10, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,004 |
| Posted: | | | | Yes, the surround information itself is encoded in an analolgue fashion, but all sound is going to be analog once you decode it. The DTS audio most likely use the same analog (and digital, for that matter) master as is used for the Dolby Digital on the DVD. |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,197 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote: Do any of you who can check this have True Blood Season 1? It says the Spanish track is Dolby surround in DTS. I'm curious as to whether DTS has a flag for this. Just tested and this is the result from disc 1: Quote:
DTS-HD Master Audio English 0 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit) DTS Audio French 1509 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit DTS Audio Spanish 320 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 320 kbps / 24-bit DTS Audio English 320 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 320 kbps / 24-bit DTS Express English 192 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / 24-bit
No surround detected. Maybe it's not encoded as such or it's not possible to detect with this tool. BTW; does anyone know what DTS Express is? | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
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