We are really sounding like we are trying to create IMDB for DVDProfiler.  IT may very well not be a bad idea, as long as it was done correctly.  As long as we had a defined scope of
what we want, and keep control, it could very well be a boon for all collectors (movie and or disc)

Charlie.....

Charlie:
A question for you IMDb for profiler. The licensing fee is very steep, there are already other progs that license their data. Why should we duplicate what has already been done, what is wrong with taking a different tack as we did 7 years ago, that is based on real data.instead of user generated data. How many imdbs does there need to be? Just wondering.

That I agree with, on all respects.

Let me reiterate what I am mostly on about here as I think some of my other thread posts are somewhat responsible for pushing mediadogg into creating this one.

I am a fairly new user, that's easy to tell, and most of what I do is aimed at trying to get new users interested. I look at all these forums and posts and what I see are a bunch of people that have the same stance and do the same thing they have done for years and years. It is rare to see anyone, even when looking at contribution notes, that doesn't have that 2007 year beside there name (when the new registration thing happened).

It does worry me that it looks like DvdP gains about 1 or 2 contributing new users per year, yet many old time users now no longer make contributions because of various reasons. They use their own rules locally and couldn't be bothered changing a profile just to contribute, or they have 1000's of possible contributions and it's all too much to continue with, or they simply think someone else can do a better job. What happens when the few of the grumpy old men who still do make the contributions decide a similar thing? Simply, you get a position where the number of contributors declines, and with this, all those people out there who just buy the program, never contribute, never post in the forums, will end up giving it away as it no longer has info on all these shiny new movies they bought.

Everything in these forums and everything in the way to contribute profiles is basically designed to scare off new users participating. Everyone needs to wake up and realise that you do need new people coming in, you need to understand they are going to screw up submitting profiles. We need to form a method to make things simpler for new users, that was my original idea when talking about a place to upload your profile so others could look at it for you and advise on corrections and I think this idea of mediadogg's should bear a similar notion.

But, you have to get new users/contributors, you have to stop saying things like "I'd rather have the very few good contributors rather then all these new people submitting just a few profiles that are full of errors". Lovely, what a nice way to encourage people to participate that is...

When I entered my stuff into DvdP there was a stack of boxsets I completely screwed up. Why? Because the couple that were in the db that I downloaded were wrong and I followed them as a template guide to making profiles for all the ones I had that were not in the db. You are all just lucky I have a harder skin and took all the things said to me when I asked about boxsets in the forums and realised everything I did was wrong. Not only did I fix every single one of them and re-submit, I even wrote a guide for the wiki for other people.

I can imagine most people in the same position as me, after copping all the "you are wrong: "you are wrong" "you do it this way or not at all" etc comments when asked would have said, "Stuff this, I'll not submit and just download them if they are there" and left the incorrect profiles in the db. It's obviously happened before as the db is riddled with incorrect profiles.

You all need new users/contributors in DvdP is going to survive.

A good point:
What I have seen though, in a post somewhere, is the idea of a "Contribution Wizard" - where you can select just the known correct part of your profile to submit - this idea is great for new users, not just you guys with your own local profile interpretations.

@Parsec:  Good point.

In anime profiles, I'd be hard pressed to come up with a dozen names for contributors, most of which haven't been active since maybe 2008.  In any rules discussion, getting more than a couple dozen people involved is unlikely, and getting more than the ~60 people who voted in this poll is quite rare (at least for any of the ones I'm aware of).

I'd wager that fewer than 100 people have more than 100 profile contributions to their name.  The vast, vast majority of the work is done by a handful of people.  I myself only have about 700 contributions, though I've been inactive for over 5 years.

Basically, there's a lot of work put into making the rules both 'simple' and 'absolute', for the supposed purpose of making it easy on the average user, but I have to wonder whether the average user has ever even considered contributing, much less read the rules.

Given the above, and that not all of the people who do contribute now are going to want to get involved in this new project, how much participation do you actually forsee?  Given that the people who might be inclined to participate are the ones shouldering a huge portion of the current burden, how detrimental is splitting their focus likely to be to their overall contribution rate?

And finally, how much of your Gold Standard database could be equally achieved using the online locks?  Of that which cannot be achieved with the locks, how much could be achieved with rule changes?  And of the remainder, how much could be achieved by improvements to the program and database?

Conceivably, this could be considered a means of splitting the primary contributors to DVDP from their contribution flow, which could be considered an attempt to influence Invelos's development by cutting off their supply line -- the community-contributed profile data that is necessary for the program to have any relevance.

I don't contribute profiles of the popular films:
1) not many are note worthy;
2) plenty people will;
i do contribute those profiles that nobody else seem to own or contribute.

Like today I submitted and is approved Upstairs Downstairs: Season Two,
including child profile w/cast credits.
also
Kidnap and Ransom: Complete Series 1 & 2;
Rake (season 1);
Special Branch: Set 1;
Mr. Lucky: Complete Series


example of the building a child profile:
First step for vuilding a new child profile built by inserted disc (ID)
data built & collected in Wordpad w.Cyberlink PowerDVD, ver 12:
data collected while disc is in the pc reader:
(Parent profile title)
Through the Wormhole: Season Three
(notes data)
(shipped date)
10/21/2012
(order date & number)
20121004  104-1057086-3517815
(studios & media data collected from disc)
Gaiam
Science Channel
Revelations Entertainment & The Incubator
Discovery Communications
(region code, audio & subtitle)
r1; audio e 2.0; subt SDH
(total running time of all episodes  per all discs)
214:54
213:54
428:48

(title)
Through the Wormhole: Season Three: Disc 1
(sort title)
Through the Wormhole: Season 3: Disc 1
(total episode running time per disc)
214:54

Through the Wormhole: Season Three: Disc 2
Through the Wormhole: Season 3: Disc 2
213:54

___________________________________________

covers are scanned by profiler and Nuance OmniPage 18 Pro 
______________________________________________

completing the process
after the child profile is built by Invelos the remaining data is filled in every thingis complete except cast & crew'

Through the Wormhole: Season Three
10/21/2012
20121004  104-1057086-3517815
Gaiam
Science Channel
Revelations Entertainment & The Incubator
Discovery Communications
r1; audio e 2.0; subt SDH
214:54
213:54
428:48

from parent: case type,release date
add disc episode number,
language & subtitles,
features

(overview data acquired by Nuance OmniPage 18 Pro from back cover and run thru Open Office tto spell check, depending on the complexity of the cover background the scanner can miss something, and I might miss it also )
Journey Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman to probe the biggest mysteries outside the galaxy and inside your mind. Are time and space only illusions? Who would we be without memories? Is death permanent? What nothing? Each of the ten episodes explores a riddle of modern science, and shows how the best answers lead to more thought provoking questions. Season 3 will bend time and space to explore the questions you wondered about all your life — and some you've never thought of before.

Episodes:
DISC 1
Will We Survive First Contact?
Is There a Superior Race?
Is the Universe Alive?
What Makes Us Who We Are?
What Is Nothing?

DISC 2
Can We Resurrect the Dead?
Can We Eliminate Evil?
Mysteries of the Subconscious
Will Eternity End?
Did We Invent God?

Through the Wormhole: Season Three: Disc 1
Through the Wormhole: Season 3: Disc 1
214:54

(overview data acquired by Nuance OmniPage 18 Pro from inside back cover and run thru Open Office to spell check, depending on the complexity of the cover background the scanner can miss something, and I might miss it also )

Will We Survive First Contact?
Mankind longs for proof that we are not alone in the universe, but the moment of first contact will certainly mean the end of the world as we know it. Whether that is a bad thing for humanity or the start of a great future is the subject of much debate.

Is There a Superior Race?
Are races different on the inside as well as the outside? Is there such a thing as race at all? Or, could advances in technology create a superior race? The answers to these questions may tell us where humanity is headed.

Is the Universe Alive?
Scientists are probing our cosmos for its beating heart, brain and even its offspring. Our universe may actually be a superorganism — a collection of separate bodies acting like a single being. If the universe is alive, how would we know?

What Makes Us Who We Are?
What is it that gives each one of us a unique identity? As we move through life our outer appearances transform almost entirely. Our opinions and ideas change. Are we all born with a permanent sense of self or can our identities be altered?

What Is Nothing?
Can there be such a thing as nothing? Scientists are looking for answers in the mind-bending science of quantum mechanics. Their work may uncover what our cosmos is made of, how it came from nothing and when it might collapse into an empty void again.

Through the Wormhole: Season Three: Disc 2
Through the Wormhole: Season 3: Disc 2
213:54

(overview data acquired by Nuance OmniPage 18 Pro from inside back cover and run thru Open Office to spell check, depending on the complexity of the cover background the scanner can miss something, and I might miss it also )

Can We Resurrect the Dead?
What if death wasn't the end? Resurrecting bodies isn't enough. To truly live again, we must also resurrect our minds. Scientists are developing ways to digitally preserve the contents of our brains. We may rise again as software, embedded in new forms.

Can We Eliminate Evil?
Researchers are uncovering the hidden forces that inflame our inner demons, looking for wags to neutralize the source of evil in the brain. Impulse control and altruism exercises make us better people. But can psychopaths, who lack empathy, ever stop being evil?

Mysteries of the Subconscious
The subconscious has long been thought of as the source of our primal fears and desires. But now scientists have discovered that the subconscious makes snap decisions that protect us from harm, and that it can even heal your body of disease.

Will Eternity End?
Can time tick on forever or will time itself end? Its possible that eternity already exists, and the future is traveling back in time to shape the present. Or time might even be a holographic projection, reaching back to us from the end of eternity.

Did We Invent God?
Did God invent humanity? Dr did we invent God? Since our brains are where we experience realitg, does imagining God make God real? One neuroscientist is trying to find the answer by peering into the human mind, and seeing what God really looks like.

Generally I don't do cast & credits of TV series until I've watched them because trying find the all the credits can sometimes spoil the viewing. I try to fill in all fields except cast & crew before any others. When I have those if no one else has contributed them I will.

With Tuesday release of dvds I received, I did 16 new profiles. I let them rest, then I;ll go back and check them for any errors or omissions. If no one has submitted them I will, if they are as correct as can make them.

@Parsec: You're IMO right about the scaring off of new users eager to contribute. As Pantheon says, and also in my perception, there are few that are zealous in following the rules and want complete profiles ASAP (I mean that as a fact, an observation). The contribution process is, however, defined differently by Invelos: any contribution that is a meaningful addition or improvement should pass, completeness is not required.
Problem is, Invelos cannot possible see all releases of all countries, so it must rely on those that do contribution reviews (us) and the subsequent Invelos reviewers (that look into our comments and use their own common sense). Sounds fine, until one realises that the same group that is 'zealous' is also so deep into the program and what should be in the online db that they are heavily involved in the contribution process. You've seen the consequences. Can we solve it? I hope your post will wake up some people. It's a bit aside of the project in this thread, but very important nonetheless.

@Kinematics: good points. I am buying very ecclecticly from my country, the USA, the UK and sometimes Germany and I am seeing, I guess, less than about 20 names seriously involved in contributing, less than 10 heavily. A lot more names pop up though when I check who voted upon a profile, also many names that I rarely or never see in the fora. There is hope 
Your point about the partial locks on online db profiles is a good one. I think many have forgotten it, and now that that is so, it is very hard to reach the required numbers to lock a section.
My thinking is that the 'gold' rules should conflict as little as possible with Invelos rules and focus on clarification; which leaves room to 're-activate' the partial locking and so secure the online db from inadvertent degradation.

@Pantheon, I share many of your observations.

On the movie db and IMDb debate one thing though. Even though we pretend to profile individual disk releases, the focus is heavily on the content of movies and TV series. In other words, we have that movie database, it is just hidden in a not-normalised version in the disk profiles in the sections on studio, cast and crew. That (in itself unnecessary IMO) data duplication, with all its unchecked errors and omissions, is creating 99% of the forum messages. The puzzle on the rules task 3 is how to normalise, how to address the 'as credited' paradigm, how to make it fit as closely as possible to the apparent data structure of the program, and at the same time keep it understandable and keep within 'common sense'. I did not say it'll be easy.
Said differently: the clean-up, the creation of gold profiles, is a part of the project and is as sizable as we want it to be. But we shouldn't let go of the fact that the puzzle pieces are already in front of us. This project is about starting on the puzzle in an organised fashion.

I am going to ask a qiestion th has never been answred by a siingle person. I want someone to explain. If you really believe imdb is so wonderful and user onterpretation is what you like then why not go use IMDb or one of the programs out there that are built around IMDb and user interpretation. Why destroy. the songle most powerful database of its type by making it something that already exists. Use the program that gives you what you want. Oh wait I know why,,, profiler is only $29. The others are $50 or more, because you cant use imdb data for free.