@Pantheon
Nice post. I am the type of person that tries to look for solutions while bitching about the problem. 

You presented an interesting list of typical errors in a contribution. The trick would be in finding new tools and procedures to minimize them. That was the reason for DVDPca - a rewrite of some tools that help pull data directly from the disc and put it directly into a profile.

But it can't do the hard stuff. So the question is, are there other ways to attack a specific list of "most probable and agredious errors?.

Some thoughts:

When a profile has been audited by someone in the community, is there usually disagreement that the profile is essentially correct? My idea is that if an audited profile is generally deemed to be OK, why not protect it from further updates, except by the "owner" - the person that earned the audited designation?

What about a wiki style of profile updates. Only when the result is flagged "ready" or whatever, would it be eligible for download. Next time it opens up for changes, the person who opens it becomes the "owner" to oversee and justify any changes. Again, no downloads until "approved" - maybe by rules committee?

It seems to me that a lot of the problems come from changes being approved and available for download piecemeal, with opportunity to undo/redo the same changes. There is no quality control lock that is procedurally agreed to that prevents somebody from coming along and proposing bad changes. Am I off base on this? If so, then how is it possible that bad data gets downloaded?

OK , that's the gist of my idea: we know the issues - why not invest some energy into additional solutions while we argue the issues.

What about a certified "Gold" database? It would be a collection of certified profiles (by the owner) that spin on a web site somewhere (like the headshots). When you get a new item, first check to see if an audited profile from your favorite auditor is available, grab it and lock from Invelos updates ... ?????

Maybe Invelos would even host the gold db. Maybe some kind of reward system, where popular auditors get recognized and/or paid? I would gladly pay a few cents to download an audited profile.

I like what I am seeing. One thong is for ken to take out the runtime type thing and sa take the runtime from the disc. Or whatever, detail your notes, one of the things that makes me crazy is supposedly well meaning users who refuse to do the right thing because invelos doesnt force them to, I have a term for Such behavior, and we dee things said such ss I am following the rules and policies of invelos.

We are the weak link in the chain. People will whine and moan about having to do things a certain way, they have for years, but people are inherrently lazy and many will do not One thong more, not even a kkeystroke, if they dont HAVE to.

That's where you are completely missing the point Winston. There's nothing now to stop 10000 users manipulating the data to the way they want. The only thing stopping them is the screener and (if you are lucky) somebody else who also buys the same release checking the profile. The screener most probably doesn't check every single piece of info - nor could they.

But, if the profile was in a public place, people like you could make a comment to it specifying if something is wrong and the admins could then rectify that profile. Maybe we could even get that public corrected profile then used to fix the one in the db.

Remember this public wiki or forum or whatever isn't the database, its an extra storage area where people can contribute, ask for help, and make use of for checking their existing information. There are already some specific forums for things like BY's etc.. why not do everything.

No problem, conceptually. I ll talk to you more in pm.

Quoting Parsec:

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I would rather try and get a system where lots of people can contribute something.

As it is now I don't know if that is possible.

Although I vote on dozens (hundreds?) of profiles a month almost all of them are by the same people.

Why? I have a fairly good idea based on my experiences as well as pms I've exchanged with those who no longer contribute.

I contribute hundreds of profiles every month - most of these profiles that I fix contain many, many mistakes and are very time consuming.

I do this for one reason and one reason only - since I am updating my local database I am willing to share my work with the community.

My contributions are done following the guidelines that the owner of the program has set. I do so honestly and to the best of my ability.

If there are "no" votes I carefully assess the situation, even bringing ambiguous things to the forums for clarification. I change things if necessary and, if I don't agree, alert the voters and screeners of the situation.

I felt it important to reiterate what I do so that I can explain the things that make the forums and/or the contribution process unpleasant - if not downright intolerable to me.

One thing that I can not stand, nor will I put up with, is being told that I "must" do things a certain way.

No one - not a single community member - can demand that contributions be made a certain way. The only person that can demand this is the owner of this program.

Every contributor has the right to contribute as much or little and in any way they want as long as they are not violating invelos written guidelines.

It is extremely tiring - no, it's quite upsetting - to be called "inconsiderate", "lazy" or that I am "raping the database" because I don't do things the way others tell me to.

Those are just a few of the thousands of egregious comments I have seen directed at contributors who have done nothing wrong.

I don't see members of the community wanting to do work in such a hostile environment.

The second thing that I feel needs to change is the way newcomers are treated. It seems to me that the community should nurture, embrace and encourage new ideas.

If someone brings something to the table quite often they and their ideas are treated poorly. Instead of brainstorming off their ideas, they are often ridiculed and their ideas shut down.

Why would anyone bring anything else to the forums if they and their ideas are mocked, ridiculed and their ideas dismissed?

Ideas should not be judged - they should be encouraged and built upon.

Finally, change is hard - but it is necessary for growth. If you nurture something it will flourish, it you don't it withers and dies. Everything, that includes this database.

So, if the community is receptive, how might a system like this be developed? What steps are needed to start the process? And, most importantly, will invelos be open to implementing such a system?

Quoting Pantheon:

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But, that doesn't explain the pre-release profiles - people still insist on submitting data that they have no way of verifying. Why? Surely, all that's needed is the title, production year, release date and possibly a picture?

Not to belabor the point, but that is exactly how Ken said it should be done.  From the post I linked to earlier, Ken said, bolding by me, "However, there are exceptions.  Obviously, prerelease contributions do not require ownership.  They should be basic starter information (e.g. complete cast and crew is impossible to correctly contribute without having the disc)."

Why this isn't spelled out in the rules is beyond me.

Quoting Parsec:

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Fine, but I thought we wanted to try and get more people involved. Publicaly recognising the best profile makers just means they will most probably be asked to do most of the work. I would rather try and get a system where lots of people can contribute something.

I am also looking at it from the disc id slant, once there is a good profile on a particular disc id, then that can be used to verify profiles with different upc's but include the same disc id.

We are on the same page. My theory is that we don't need to ASK people to do more if they are MOTIVATED to do more. The work always has been, and I agree should continue to be voluntary. It is the recognition from and admiration of our peers that keeps us working. That's why Kathy's comments about how we treat one another and newbies is so relevant.

But once again I say, it is easy to sit here and bitch and moan through the keyboard. How about a serious effort to fix the issues ... unless of course .... nah, I wouldn't want to suggest that ... 

We need a Team Leader to step up (not me - I don't understand the contributions game), a Project Manager (I could help with this, but so could several others), and some clever ideas for solutions (Rules Committee with Community input), and a statement / commitment from Invelos that it will support the effort.

Let's stop all the whining and finger pointing and focus on solutions.