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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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BD-Info Tool - Dolby Surround / Stereo |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 5,734 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Lewpy: Quote: I've been using BDInfo for a while now, and found it very useful The source code is freely available, and I did download it and recompile it VLC, MediaInfo and ProjextX are open source, too. | | | Don't confuse while the film is playing with when the film is played. [Ken Cole, DVD Profiler Architect] |
| Registered: May 8, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,945 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting bbbbb: Quote: Quoting DarklyNoon:
Quote: thx for doing that and also a big thx for telling me about ProjectX, didnt have a tool for DVDs yet !! For DVDs you can use:
VLC MediaInfo ProjectX PowerDVD (open Media File; writes "Dolby Digital 2.0" if Stereo, "Dolby Digital Surround 2.0" if surround)
They all differentiate between Stereo and Surround, with matching results, no copy-protection-removal software needed. thx, green arrow for you Donnie | | | www.tvmaze.com | | | Last edited: by DarklyNoon |
| Registered: May 8, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,945 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote: I have it removed for DVD, but is there any free way to do so for Blu-ray? I have no interest in paying a bunch of money just so I can get audio data. I do not know of a freeware solution, I bought a lifetime license from AnyDVD HD, I thought it is really worth it and so far it was worth every dime Donnie | | | www.tvmaze.com |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 5,734 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Quote: Ace, you need to remove the copy protection, then every tool will work for you Is there any shareware out there that will do this? AnyDVD is not free. No. Additional software is not required for examining DVDs: VLC, MediaInfo, ProjectX and PowerDVD work out of the box. For examining B-rDs with BDInfo, VLC or MediaInfo you'd need SlySoft's AnyDVD HD (21 days free evaluation period), or Fengtao Software's DVDFab Passkey (free during beta stage). Enough time to check out the tools. I'd not recommend PowerDVD for analyzing B-rDs, it opens the stream file in media mode, but it's not possible to switch the audio track then (at least not in the old v7.3 which came for free with the B-r recorder). | | | Don't confuse while the film is playing with when the film is played. [Ken Cole, DVD Profiler Architect] |
| Registered: June 22, 2007 | Posts: 89 |
| Posted: | | | | Dear Donnie and all the others, sorry for being the grinch again, but can anybody tell me the advantage of BDInfo? What we have here is what we had before with the mentioned DVD tools: They all only show how the discs are flagged which obviously is suitable to only a limited extent to tell the correct way of playback. All those wrongly flagged DVDs in the all those years from the beginning on. Why should it be different with Blu-rays now? It is still the problem of feature films that were presented in 4-channel matrixed DOLBY STEREO in cinemas and are flagged now 2.0 stereo and not 2.0 Surround. Even PCM 2.0 may of course contain Surround information. Or did I misunderstand something? | | | Last edited: by schaumi |
| Registered: May 8, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,945 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting schaumi: Quote: Dear Donnie and all the others,
sorry for being the grinch again, but can anybody tell me the advantage of BDInfo? What we have here is what we had before with the mentioned DVD tools: They all only show how the discs are flagged which obviously is suitable to only a limited extent to tell the correct way of playback.
All those wrongly flagged DVDs in the all those years from the beginning on. Why should it be different with Blu-rays now? It is still the problem of feature films that were presented in 4-channel matrixed DOLBY STEREO in cinemas and are flagged now 2.0 stereo and not 2.0 Surround. Even PCM 2.0 may of course contain Surround information.
Or did I misunderstand something? Well from my understanding (and also bbbbb's and Katatonia's and Forget The Rest's) BDInfo exactly tells you how the stream is encoded. That is why you also see 2.0 Stereo and Surround on the same disk. For my understanding BDInfo exactly tells you what is Stereo and what is Surround. And so far it always matched with other programs or when Forget the REst matched it with his amplifier. I think this is as close as we can get to put the correct data into Profiler. Donnie | | | www.tvmaze.com |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,217 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting schaumi: Quote: Even PCM 2.0 may of course contain Surround information. They might, but (from my understanding and Lewpy seems to concur) the PCM simply can't hold the Flag for those Surround information, hence no detection by any tool. cya, Mithi | | | Mithi's little XSLT tinkering - the power of XML --- DVD-Profiler Mini-Wiki |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,197 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting schaumi: Quote: Dear Donnie and all the others,
sorry for being the grinch again, but can anybody tell me the advantage of BDInfo? What we have here is what we had before with the mentioned DVD tools: They all only show how the discs are flagged which obviously is suitable to only a limited extent to tell the correct way of playback.
All those wrongly flagged DVDs in the all those years from the beginning on. Why should it be different with Blu-rays now? It is still the problem of feature films that were presented in 4-channel matrixed DOLBY STEREO in cinemas and are flagged now 2.0 stereo and not 2.0 Surround. Even PCM 2.0 may of course contain Surround information.
Or did I misunderstand something? We use BDInfo because there are two options in the program, 2-channel stereo and dolby surround, and there is (to my knowledge) no other way other than looking at the flag that an ordinary user can be expected to perform when profiling these discs. I'd rather eiliminate the program options but as long as they are there, we should try to enter the data as it is presented on the disc. Even if the flag is set incorrectly, the information is still there and should be documented. | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
| Registered: May 8, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,945 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Kinoniki: Quote: Quoting schaumi:
Quote: Dear Donnie and all the others,
sorry for being the grinch again, but can anybody tell me the advantage of BDInfo? What we have here is what we had before with the mentioned DVD tools: They all only show how the discs are flagged which obviously is suitable to only a limited extent to tell the correct way of playback.
All those wrongly flagged DVDs in the all those years from the beginning on. Why should it be different with Blu-rays now? It is still the problem of feature films that were presented in 4-channel matrixed DOLBY STEREO in cinemas and are flagged now 2.0 stereo and not 2.0 Surround. Even PCM 2.0 may of course contain Surround information.
Or did I misunderstand something?
We use BDInfo because there are two options in the program, 2-channel stereo and dolby surround, and there is (to my knowledge) no other way other than looking at the flag that an ordinary user can be expected to perform when profiling these discs. I'd rather eiliminate the program options but as long as they are there, we should try to enter the data as it is presented on the disc. Even if the flag is set incorrectly, the information is still there and should be documented. agreed | | | www.tvmaze.com |
| Registered: June 22, 2007 | Posts: 89 |
| Posted: | | | | Dear friends, what we've learned in the past with films on DVD is, that the decision whether a film gets the stereo or the surround flag, is likely to be based on some kind of lottery rather than on knowledge. And it seems to be the same with BDInfo. In my opinion it does not show whether a film was conceived as surround or as stereo but only how it is flagged. If you have the surround encoded mix of a feature film and it is flagged stereo only it is still surround encoded material. (There is no way to remove the center and surround information.) Hence for me there is no advantage in the knowledge how a film on the disc is flagged. It does not change the soundtrack of the film itself. If you have a feature film on PCM 2.0 that was DOLBY STEREO in cinemas, it will still contain the surround information, no matter how it is flagged on the disk. It is the same thing with DOLBY STEREO EX. A lot of films were mixed in matrixed DD EX but are not flagged that way. But the correct way to watch them would be in (then manually activated) EX mode.
Anyway, BDInfo seems to be a nice tool and it is, at least, a way to verify the information on the cover or on the display of the player. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,197 |
| Posted: | | | | I understand, And if there was an easy, fool-proof way to document real surround vs. stereo it would be most welcome. Sadly, no such method seem to exist. | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 844 |
| Posted: | | | | So bottom line is that there is no accurate way to determine this. If all BDinfo does is read the flag whcih may or may not be accurate then why are we using it as a source to backup changes to audio tracks? |
| Registered: May 8, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,945 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting bob9000: Quote: So bottom line is that there is no accurate way to determine this. If all BDinfo does is read the flag whcih may or may not be accurate then why are we using it as a source to backup changes to audio tracks? Who says it just reads the flag ? This is just an assumption you are making. All of us here think the tool is doing correct work and Forget The rest checked many changes with his receiver and confirmed all changes are correct. Also if you would have read the thread closely, bbbbb has checked the BDInfo Tool with 2 other programs, and ALL reults exactly matched. The screeners seem to agree with us too, as my contributions are getting approved, so did katatonias and bbbbb's. Donnie | | | www.tvmaze.com | | | Last edited: by DarklyNoon |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 844 |
| Posted: | | | | Right here Donnie. Lewpy said it. I am not the one making assumptions, please try reading all of the posts before responding. Quoting Lewpy: Quote:
As for detecting "Surround" tracks, it does this by looking for the relevant bitstream flag being set in the audio tracks. Now, correctly encoded tracks should set the flags properly, but it has been known for them to be incorrectly coded. However, in this situation, our amplifier will also follow the bitstream flag, so you would have to know the flags are incorrect and manually override the amp (for example, a surround encoded track without the surround flag set). Kinoniki and Shaumi also said it just a couple posts ago. So if the programs and the receivers in question all detect the flag, then they should receive the same results. Not in dispute. What I am asking is, if the flags are set incorrectly with the frequency that some here seem to suggest they are, what good is detecting them? At the very least contributions notes should be something like: "BDinfo Tool has confirmed the presence of (or lack of) a surround flag on such and such track". That way even if the flag is in error, the notes are accurate. And if BDinfo does not achieve its results by checking the flag, how does it work then? And finally, if you belive that the screeners are checking your findings before approving your changes then you are living in a happy dreamland and I envy you for it. | | | Last edited: by bob9000 |
| Registered: June 5, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 93 |
| Posted: | | | | To clarify, BDInfo will only indicate "Surround" for AC3 (Dolby Digital) audio streams. It does this by the following piece of code From TSCodecAC3.cs Quote: if (channel_mode == 0x2) { dsurmod = buffer.ReadBits(2); if (dsurmod == 0x2) { stream.AudioMode = PSAudioMode.Surround; } } and it indicates it to the user as follows From TSStream.cs Quote: if (ChannelCount == 2) { switch (AudioMode) { case PSAudioMode.DualMono: description += " / Dual Mono"; break;
case PSAudioMode.Surround: description += " / Dolby Surround"; break; } } In the first section of code, it checks for the presence of a certain set bit in the stream (a "flag"). In the second, if the number of channels is 2 & the surround flag was detected, it marks it as "Dolby Surround". It does not do any clever audio analysis: the process for decoding a Dolby Surround encoded audio stream is well known, however it would require some _very_ clever signal processing to determine that the resultant center and/or surround channels actually contained any "useful" information [for our ears]. Is it infallible? No: the audio tracks could be incorrectly marked for Surround, in either case when it really does or doesn't have Surround information. Is it useful? Yes: it shows how the audio is encoded on the disc, at a "top level". This is the same as seeing what your amp does, etc. [assuming your player/amp/etc. work 100% correctly, and don't make "mistakes"]. For me, that means I can do my checking in front of my computer, and don't need to take over the TV while doing the checks: Family Friendly™ A warning:BDInfo lists the audio tracks in the order that they are encoded in the audio stream (I requested the author include an option not to just sort the audio tracks alphabetically, so check the options first to confirm that setting). This does not always line up with how the "Playlist" displays the audio streams in a Player: the player can display them "1 3 2 4" instead of "1 2 3 4", or any other different order. So you really do need to check in a player (PowerDVD, etc.) to see how they are presented to the "Viewer", otherwise you will end up with a game of "Ping Pong" The way I see it in the rules, we should prioritise audio as follows (lowest priority to highest priority) 1) Take the Audio from the rear cover, as the rules state ["Use the Audio specified on the DVD Cover"] 2) Use a method to check the encoding (without actually listening) 3) Listen and analyse the output audio to determine accurate audio channel information (2)&(3) both fall under the section "unless you can verify there is a discrepancy between that and the actual Audio included on the disc": the methods are different, but they both determine discrepancies. Anyone can do (1) [literacy assumed]. Read cover, type it in Most people can do (2) (either on their hifi equipment ["your DVD player"], or using computer programs ["DVD-ROM drive"]) A few people can do (3). This requires experience, know-how, equipment, and above all time. As long as the method of determining the audio is documented in the Contribution Notes ["When contributing accurate, DVD based Audio, include your verification method in your Contribution Notes"], then future contributors and voters can decided if future contributions contains more accurate information. In my experience, I have seen a lot of mistakes on the Audio Information on the back covers of DVDs, and even Blu-rays (perhaps because there is generally far more audio tracks on Blu-rays, with more format choices). I see value in any method that checks this information against what is listed on the cover. | | | You can download higher resolution versions of any of my cover scans from here |
| Registered: May 8, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,945 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Lewpy: Quote: To clarify, BDInfo will only indicate "Surround" for AC3 (Dolby Digital) audio streams. It does this by the following piece of code
From TSCodecAC3.cs
Quote: if (channel_mode == 0x2) { dsurmod = buffer.ReadBits(2); if (dsurmod == 0x2) { stream.AudioMode = PSAudioMode.Surround; } }
and it indicates it to the user as follows
From TSStream.cs
Quote: if (ChannelCount == 2) { switch (AudioMode) { case PSAudioMode.DualMono: description += " / Dual Mono"; break;
case PSAudioMode.Surround: description += " / Dolby Surround"; break; } }
In the first section of code, it checks for the presence of a certain set bit in the stream (a "flag"). In the second, if the number of channels is 2 & the surround flag was detected, it marks it as "Dolby Surround".
It does not do any clever audio analysis: the process for decoding a Dolby Surround encoded audio stream is well known, however it would require some _very_ clever signal processing to determine that the resultant center and/or surround channels actually contained any "useful" information [for our ears].
Is it infallible? No: the audio tracks could be incorrectly marked for Surround, in either case when it really does or doesn't have Surround information. Is it useful? Yes: it shows how the audio is encoded on the disc, at a "top level". This is the same as seeing what your amp does, etc. [assuming your player/amp/etc. work 100% correctly, and don't make "mistakes"]. For me, that means I can do my checking in front of my computer, and don't need to take over the TV while doing the checks: Family Friendly™
A warning: BDInfo lists the audio tracks in the order that they are encoded in the audio stream (I requested the author include an option not to just sort the audio tracks alphabetically, so check the options first to confirm that setting). This does not always line up with how the "Playlist" displays the audio streams in a Player: the player can display them "1 3 2 4" instead of "1 2 3 4", or any other different order. So you really do need to check in a player (PowerDVD, etc.) to see how they are presented to the "Viewer", otherwise you will end up with a game of "Ping Pong"
The way I see it in the rules, we should prioritise audio as follows (lowest priority to highest priority) 1) Take the Audio from the rear cover, as the rules state ["Use the Audio specified on the DVD Cover"] 2) Use a method to check the encoding (without actually listening) 3) Listen and analyse the output audio to determine accurate audio channel information
(2)&(3) both fall under the section "unless you can verify there is a discrepancy between that and the actual Audio included on the disc": the methods are different, but they both determine discrepancies.
Anyone can do (1) [literacy assumed]. Read cover, type it in Most people can do (2) (either on their hifi equipment ["your DVD player"], or using computer programs ["DVD-ROM drive"]) A few people can do (3). This requires experience, know-how, equipment, and above all time.
As long as the method of determining the audio is documented in the Contribution Notes ["When contributing accurate, DVD based Audio, include your verification method in your Contribution Notes"], then future contributors and voters can decided if future contributions contains more accurate information.
In my experience, I have seen a lot of mistakes on the Audio Information on the back covers of DVDs, and even Blu-rays (perhaps because there is generally far more audio tracks on Blu-rays, with more format choices). I see value in any method that checks this information against what is listed on the cover. Well explained and well said, but this even undermines it more to use the BDInfo Tool for checking on surround and stereo Donnie | | | www.tvmaze.com |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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