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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Parsing chinese names, example Gong (Family name) Li (given name) |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | I will grant this much, north. This discussiuon seems to fall in the same vein as the accented characters, and ken commented that IF documentation can be provided relative to Gong Li or Li gong then you can use the alias system. But it must be documented and by that I don't mean "because he is Chinese" or whatever, I mean REAL documentation.
Ken also made the following comment which you have totally ignored. "We try to keep rules simple even (sometimes) at the cost of infinite "accuracy". "
That is indeed what I tried to do, it users such as yourselkf who wish to complicate things beyond belief.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Here the entire post which Ken described the usage of the Alias(Credited As)
"Posted: May 27, 2008 12:13 PM PM this user Email this user Visit this user's homepage View this user's DVD collection Reply with quote The rule covering capitalization is "Exception: If the credit information is entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead." This rule does not have anything to do with accented characters.
The rules continue: "Use the "Credited As" field where the person's name differs from the credited name." If an actors name can be documented to include accented characters, the Credited As field should be used.
The rules continue: "To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool." Note that the credit lookup tool is only a tool. It is not intended to override properly documented actor names.
Some credit listings have fully capitalized names with accents, some without. Some have mixed case with accents, some without. So, it's not possible to determine whether the accents were left off due to typeface limitations or due to intent. We try to keep rules simple even (sometimes) at the cost of infinite "accuracy". The Credited As field allows actor linking across your collection while maintaining the credit list as shown.
Hope this helps.
Ken | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,459 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote: You even try to apply some culturtal norm to First Name, Middle name and last Name and you have been told before they are merely positional terms, NOT the cultural terms you want apply.
Skip Not told by Invelos we haven't and it was Ken who designed the program. The cast and crew are even sorted by last name which infers cultural rather than positional use. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,459 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote: That is your inference, North. I have given you an out , take it and be happy.
Slip And as you have been told repeatedly, regardless of your involvement with the rules, it's not your job to give people "outs", it's Invelos's. You didn't write the program, Ken did. He's the only one who can tell us what data he wants in what field. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | He already did assuming you know how to read, which i presume you have the ability to do since you seem to consider yourself an expert on interpretation. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,459 |
| Posted: | | | | I'll ignore that. Suffice to say, yes it was me who just gave you two red arrows. Grow up! |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,436 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote: Not told by Invelos we haven't and it was Ken who designed the program. The cast and crew are even sorted by last name which infers cultural rather than positional use. This is a very good and valid point. I point that out because I just noticed that in all the time I discussed the issue (long time ago; I eventually gave up because people who don't understand the problem and are hardly affected by it kept interfering) I never thought of that. | | | Achim [諾亞信; Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan. Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative) |
| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,459 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting ya_shin: Quote: Quoting northbloke:
Quote: Not told by Invelos we haven't and it was Ken who designed the program. The cast and crew are even sorted by last name which infers cultural rather than positional use. This is a very good and valid point. I point that out because I just noticed that in all the time I discussed the issue (long time ago; I eventually gave up because people who don't understand the problem and are hardly affected by it kept interfering) I never thought of that. Thanks, I think it's a valid point too. If first/middle/last were purely positional then why would we sort by last? Why would we bother with Helena/Bonham Carter? It seems much more likely to me that Ken simply designed a name system based on names he was familiar with - US names. It probably never even occurred to him that different naming conventions would have problems fitting into the same system. I can think of only three solutions: 1. We are told that for Asian names we use screen order. 2. We are told that for Asian names we use given/family and use "credited as" for screen order. 3. We are told to use given/family and the program is changed to swap the order (via use of a checkbox). Personally, I'd prefer no. 3 but I think if anything happens, it'll more likely be no. 1, as implementing no. 2 would effectively rule out the use of the CLT for Asian names. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 736 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote: It seems much more likely to me that Ken simply designed a name system based on names he was familiar with - US names. It probably never even occurred to him that different naming conventions would have problems fitting into the same system. I can think of only three solutions: 1. We are told that for Asian names we use screen order. 2. We are told that for Asian names we use given/family and use "credited as" for screen order. 3. We are told to use given/family and the program is changed to swap the order (via use of a checkbox).
Personally, I'd prefer no. 3 but I think if anything happens, it'll more likely be no. 1, as implementing no. 2 would effectively rule out the use of the CLT for Asian names. In my opinion, your number 3 should be switched. It should be step 1, where we use screen order (which is usually Family/Given), with a checkbox for those who want it Westernized. All I know is that if the choice is made that we have to go with backwards-way of putting Given Name/Family Name in the list, despite the credits, then have to use the Credited as system to get it right... well, that will be the end of my contributing Asian cast and crew. Too much stupid work for something that can be handled simply. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | You have been told told to use number 1,but you don't like the meassage or messenger. I have also demonstrated that ken has alreay produced a compromise for you, but that is not good enough. The way I see this is that you want it the way YOU want it and only the way you want it. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| Registered: December 29, 2007 | Posts: 1 |
| Posted: | | | | Quote: There are simple rules to decipher first and last names: * If a non-Asian first name is listed first, then that goes in the first name field. The rest in the last name field. Ie "Simon/Yam" and "Tony/Leung Ka Fai". wow, that would truly annoy me if someone decided that my last name was something other than what it was. "Leung Ka Fai" is NOT his surname... its only "Leung". "Ka Fai" being his given name (chinese). common problem for many Hong Kong actors who are sometimes credited by only the first two parts (Tony Leung, Maggie Cheung), sometimes as first/last/chinese (Tony Leung Ka Fai, Maggie Cheung Man Yuk), and sometimes just by chinese name (Leung Ka Fai) Helena Bonham Carter is another example of why something needs to be changed -- ie having one box for the complete name (as commonly credited?) or having specifically labeled boxes for each name/part? Because going by the type it as you see the words rule, Bonham would end up as the middle name in this case, instead of as part of the last name. perhaps if the program could display the name as credited, but with the surname tagged somehow? ie: Tony LEUNG Ka Fai or Helena Bonham Carter or Charles Philip Arthur George (hmm... actually no surname there really) or Cher (just the one name, no surname here either) entry could be into one box, parsed into sections by the program (or into multiple boxes) -- all in as credited order, and then you'd tell the program which bits comprised the surname. (ok, i'm not sure what to do with people without surnames) This way, the displayed name looks as most people expect, and its still sortable by surname (and it'd prolly actually sort by surname+full displayed name, so the sort order should be largely as expected in a telephone directory sort of way) |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 736 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting lacunae: Quote:
Quote: There are simple rules to decipher first and last names: * If a non-Asian first name is listed first, then that goes in the first name field. The rest in the last name field. Ie "Simon/Yam" and "Tony/Leung Ka Fai".
wow, that would truly annoy me if someone decided that my last name was something other than what it was. "Leung Ka Fai" is NOT his surname... its only "Leung". "Ka Fai" being his given name (chinese). common problem for many Hong Kong actors who are sometimes credited by only the first two parts (Tony Leung, Maggie Cheung), sometimes as first/last/chinese (Tony Leung Ka Fai, Maggie Cheung Man Yuk), and sometimes just by chinese name (Leung Ka Fai) The bigger problem, just using those two examples, is that there are others with that name as well, Tony Leung Chiu-wai and Maggie Cheung Ho-yee. Quote:
Helena Bonham Carter is another example of why something needs to be changed -- ie having one box for the complete name (as commonly credited?) or having specifically labeled boxes for each name/part? Because going by the type it as you see the words rule, Bonham would end up as the middle name in this case, instead of as part of the last name.
perhaps if the program could display the name as credited, but with the surname tagged somehow? ie: Tony LEUNG Ka Fai or Helena Bonham Carter or Charles Philip Arthur George (hmm... actually no surname there really) or Cher (just the one name, no surname here either)
entry could be into one box, parsed into sections by the program (or into multiple boxes) -- all in as credited order, and then you'd tell the program which bits comprised the surname. (ok, i'm not sure what to do with people without surnames)
This way, the displayed name looks as most people expect, and its still sortable by surname (and it'd prolly actually sort by surname+full displayed name, so the sort order should be largely as expected in a telephone directory sort of way) I really like the idea of a single name with the ability to tag the surname. Those without surnames (like a stage name), would automatically be tagged as one, since it would be used that way for searching (which seems to be the main reason this is even an issue). |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | As I noted lacunae, it is already fixed, this fits into the same place as the post Ken made relative to accented names, which is also a cultural issue. He has provided that WITH DOCUMENTATION you can use the Common Name system to get what you want without violating the Credited As system. There are some for whom that answer is not good enough sadly, or at least it seems so to me, since if it were this has become a total non-issue.
I also see people essentially saying that we don't care that Ken said ""We try to keep rules simple even (sometimes) at the cost of infinite "accuracy". I am seeing soime say we want to make it very hard and complex for infinite accuracy. Now somebody please shiow me otherwise.
There it is in black & white, all that needs to be done is....execute.
Since synner mentioned the magic word...searching. Where is searching done...people. Online....NO. Searching is a LOCAL issue, if that is truly what this is about, you can do ANYTHING you want locally.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,459 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting synner_man: Quote: In my opinion, your number 3 should be switched. It should be step 1, where we use screen order (which is usually Family/Given), with a checkbox for those who want it Westernized.
All I know is that if the choice is made that we have to go with backwards-way of putting Given Name/Family Name in the list, despite the credits, then have to use the Credited as system to get it right... well, that will be the end of my contributing Asian cast and crew. Too much stupid work for something that can be handled simply. Interesting idea. The reason I chose to word it the way I did was because the fields are already called frist/middle/last. Doing it the way I described would mean that all given names (western and asian) and all family names would end up in the same fields. The checkbox I described would affect only the order they were displayed. To be honest, if we were told to use "credited as" I would have great difficulty with that also. It would involve an incredible amount of work for very little result. But I felt that as it is an option it was only fair to include it. If Ken were to tell us: use word order only, I would be disappointed, but it is a workable solution which still leaves room for later upgrades. @Skip, this has nothing to do with accented names, it's a different issue completely. And Ken's statement about that issue dealt with capitalised names only. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,759 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote: What it proves it what the intent was when I designed it, the cultural problem was NOT relevant, the relevant issue was how the data was displayed ON SCREEN. In most Asian films, which I own, I can see only Asian characters in the credits on the screen. And I'm not speaking of DVDs from an Asian locality. I'm speaking of DVDs localised for Europe or USA. |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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