Quoting goblinsdoitall:

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Quoting noodleboy:

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If we are talking about Sir Alec Guiness, for example, it doesn't matter what ANY of us think his name should be.  If he is credited as Dr. Alex Lagerhead, then that is exactly what goes into the "Credited As".

That's exactly where the problem starts.
As long as you can't prove that Dr. Alex Lagerhead is Sir Alec Guiness and not just a look-alike, in the profiles he'd have to show up "AS Credited", which means as Dr. Alex Lagerhead.
EDIT: After you found a proof that these two are identical you'd have to use the "Credit Lookup-Tool" to find out which of these names is more commonly used. Let's assume this would be "Sir Alec Guiness", then in the profile he would have to show up as "Sir Alec Guiness" credited as "Dr. Alex Lagerhead"

Only if you believe that "Sir" is part of his name!

I don't.

Sooooo...if any of you were wondering how far away the online is to getting decent cast/crew linking, this thread should clearly demonstrate that the answer effectively is...never. 

Quoting noodleboy:

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Quoting skipnet50:

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I didn't jump on him, midnit. In every case the As Credited data HAS to be correct BEFORE we can use the Alias system. I am trying to get people to comprehend this, either Tim wasn't paying attention or doesn't careor didn't understand, so I merely tried to expalin it AGAIN. I would expect the Alias to be Alec Guiness or John Gielgud or what have you, but if As Credited is not correct then we have no reliability of an accurate population count for the Alias. Just as Hal is trying to make up an Alias Senator Bill Bradley, whoi is credited with ONE single performance as Senator Bill Bradley and ZERO performances as Bill Bradley, William Bradley what have you. Therefore As Credited and credited are one and the same, there is no provision for hal's fiction.

Skip

Skip,

I think a big part of the problem here, which is causing you to have to explain things over and over, is a definition of terms.  I think that people, including myself, are getting confused because so many different terms are being used, but are not defined.  We are seeing "Common Name", "Credited As", "As Credited", "Alias", "First Name", "Middle Name", "Last Name" and many others.  Some are obvious.  Here is my understanding of some of these terms.  Please correct me if I am not understanding correctly:

I think it's pretty clear that "Credited As" refers to the "Credited As" field in DVDP.  I also think that most of us all understand that what goes into that field is exactly what is printed in the credits.  If we are talking about Sir Alec Guiness, for example, it doesn't matter what ANY of us think his name should be.  If he is credited as Dr. Alex Lagerhead, then that is exactly what goes into the "Credited As".  Including all punctuation, etc.

First/Middle/Last Name is a bit trickier, as it is debatable if things like "Sir" or "Senator" should be included. It is also debatable if double first names (such as Mary Jane) should be entered as first/middle or both in the first name field, but that is a whole different can of worms.  My understanding is that the credit lookup tool should be used to help with this.  Also, if I understand correctly, the credit lookup tool gets its data from the "Credited As" data, and NOT from the "First/Middle/Last Name" data.  The tool will show how the person is credited in actual film credits.  If Sir Alec Guiness is NEVER credited with the "Sir" title, then the credit lookup tool will show 0 returns for "Sir Alec Guiness".  Since it has been established that Sir Alec Guiness is nearly always listed as "Alec Guiness" in movie credits, isn't that the name we should use in the First/Middle/Last fields?  First Name: Alec  Last Name: Guiness.  Sir should be left out.  Right?

Aside from those two, all of the other terms used are descriptive, but not defined. 
Common Name:  I don't know what that is.  I think you mean the most common result from the credit lookup tool.

Alias:  Again, I don't know for certain.  All I know is that you have stated it is the same as the Common Name.  Also, that the alias system will not work unless the "As Credited" data is correct.

As Credited: I'm not sure what you mean by this at all.  Since you have mentioned both "Credited As" and "As Credited" in the same post, as different things, I'm not sure what this would be.  I think this might be one of the biggest problems with people misunderstanding your explanations on this subject.

Hopefully, I've got the basics down right and a bit of clarification from you will clear up the remaining confusions.

Noodleboy

AS CREDITED is the data that populates the name field name. Credited As is used as part of the alias system.

Let's take Sr Alec as an extreme example, and it is purely hypothetical, as we all know the name field is rife with errors. I believe the numbe rI saw was 593 Alec Guiness now let us suppose that we discover that 300 of those Alec Guiness are ACTUALLY credited as SIR ALEC Guiness, thus the actual count should be 300 to 293. Now, what would be the common name. It would obviously no longer be Alec Guiness would it The name data is not fictional or created out of whole cloth, it is in theory made up of populated by ALL the variants that a given actor has ACTUALLY been credited with. If this data is not correct then Credited As cannot be correct as we attempt to discern what is the appropriate alias.

Being fairly new I cxan understand you onfusion at the terms and while subtle As Credited and Credited As are two entirely different concepts.

Skip

Quoting skipnet50:

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Hal:

I find your usage of the term red herring to be insulting beyond belief. Just because you think it is, does not mean that it was intended to be or is viewed as such by others. the usage of that term is only meant diminish, demean and dismiss the user's comment or opinion. So kindly keep those kind of half-baked comments to yourself, and yes i used the term deliberately.That is twice in this thread that you have used the term, remove it from your vocabulary, a third time will draw fire.

Skip

Skip,

All I can say is if the shoe fits, wear it.

From Wikipedia: Red herring - a logical fallacy in which one purports to prove one's point by means of irrelevant arguments.

That is exactly what people are attempting to do when they try to divert the discussion to stage names when we are talking about names that include titles.

One has nothing to do with the other.

The fact that you find the use of the term "insulting beyond belief" is of no concern to me.

Your post is also a red herring in that it also tries to divert the discussion away from the original topic of the thread.  Why don't you just address the issues instead of the absurd indignation?

Fire away!

Quoting kdh1949:

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Quoting hal9g:

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Quoting Unicus69:

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Quoting hal9g:

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My logic has nothing to do with what his "real" name is (as in the cases you cite).  It never has.  Go back and re-read what I have said.

If that is the case, then, my mistake.

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My argument is simply that "Senator" is not part of his name, therefore, it does not belong in the "Name" Field and you must use the "credited as" field to enter the EXACT credit because his actual credit differs from his name..

It is, however, part of his 'credited name'...something that you acknowledge back on page 3.  Since that is the case, Ken has already decided the issue.  He said, "The common name is not intended to always reflect the "real name", but the most commonly credited name."

From what I have read, Senator Bill Bradley has one credit.  If we all agree that his 'credited name' is 'Senator Bill Bradley', and he only has the one credit, based on Ken's comment his common name is 'Senator Bill Bradley'...or am I missing something? 

But it has to be a NAME.  Senator is not part of the NAME.

OR are you going to argue that his first name is "Senator Bill"?

Yes, for our credits purpose.  Just because it's a title doesn't make it not part of a name.

Hmmm...I must be missing something here.  Why is it called a "title" if it is a "name"?

For "Credited As" it is included because that is what the credits actually say.

The "Name" field, however is for THE NAME of the actor.  His NAME is Bill Bradley; it is not Senator Bill Bradley.  I'm amazed that anyone would actually argue that "Senator" is part of anyone's name. 

Quoting Unicus69:

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Quoting hal9g:

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Hmmm...I must be missing something here.  Why is it called a "title" if it is a "name"?

For "Credited As" it is included because that is what the credits actually say.

The "Name" field, however is for THE NAME of the actor.  His NAME is Bill Bradley; it is not Senator Bill Bradley.  I'm amazed that anyone would actually argue that "Senator" is part of anyone's name. 

I am sorry, but if '40 SPECIALLY TRAINED ECUADORIAN MOUNTAIN LLAMAS' can be people, a title can be part of a name. 

Enough with the red herrings.  We're not talking about extremely rare exceptions in the credits where Hollywood decided to include animals.  We're talking about names with titles in front of them!

We're talking about what is a name.  The "Name" field, by virtue of the label of the field should contain a name (when we're talking about people and they are not exceptions already defined in the Rules).  Citing animal credits to argue that therefore a "title" can be part of a name is preposterous.

Quoting Unicus69:

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In addition, Ken already clarified the issue.  He said, in no uncertain terms, "The common name is not intended to always reflect the "real name", but the most commonly credited name."

And how many times have you argued that we cannot expect the users of the program to know everything that has been posted in these forums, even by Ken.  If this was so important, why hasn't it been added to the Rules.  I'm sorry, but using the "most common credit" for someone using the lookup tool, when you know that it is wrong, e.g., it is not a name, but a name and a title, is not the best plan in town. 

Quoting Unicus69:

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In a previous post, you admit that his 'credited name' is "Senator Bill Bradley"  Add that to the fact that he has one single credit which, by definition, makes it his most commonly credited name.  Add that to the fact that Ken said to use the most commonly credited name and I can't figure out what you are basing your argument on? 

Precisely why such an approach is flawed.  His name is Billl Bradley.

Name = Bill Bradley
DVDP field = "Name"
Therefore DVDP "Name" field = Bill Bradley

Credit = Senator Bill Bradley
DVDP field = "Credited As"
Therefore DVDP "Credited As" field = Senator Bill Bradley

There is no need to involve the credit lookup tool.  It is not needed to figure this out.

Hal is very good at chasing his tail, Unicus. You are absolutely correct.

Skip

Quoting Unicus69:

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I am sorry, but if '40 SPECIALLY TRAINED ECUADORIAN MOUNTAIN LLAMAS' can be people, a title can be part of a name. 

40 SPECIALLY TRAINED ECUADORIAN MOUNTAIN LLAMAS can not be people!