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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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More abuse of group dividers: song writing credits? |
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| Author |
Message |
| Registered: March 20, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
I do not know any other way to explain it Doesn't it strike you as somewhat odd that you should be able to contribute the titles of some songs written for a film but not others? I mean, in the scenario you're advocating, songs written by a single composer must have their titles omitted, while those having multiple writers may be contributed. That alone should be enough to tell you that this application of group dividers is wrong. --------------- |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,879 |
| | Posted: | | | | First, I agree with Charlie. A team is a group of people working together to achieve something. Song writers are part of the crew. Therefore if multiples of them are working together they are a crew team. Scott, however, brings up the very valid point that this interpretation of the rules eliminates single writers from being listed with their songs. It seems the primary objection people have to the use of song titles in group dividers is that it is not spelled out in the rules. It has been pointed out that it should be brought up in the rules committee forum. I did that. In July of last year. What I proposed to add was this: "For song writing credits you may use a Group Divider to indicate the name of the song that was written. If the credit is a general one (such as 'Songs by') do not use a divider." At the time, the two objections that were posted were 1) the rules are too complicated now & 2) song writers aren't a crew team. Since this would add a specific use of the divider for this purpose, that makes #2 moot. #1 will stand for any addition to the rules. My reasoning for liking this use is still the same as it was a year ago: Quote:
1. It creates context to the credit & adds value to the database.
2. It uses a tool we already have and does not require a program update.
3. Often credits will present in this fashion, with the song title as a divider.
4. If there came a time when we wanted to enter non-original songs, this would again give us a context for them.
5. If there comes a time when we enter custom credits, this still has value & purpose, since often you will see lyrics and music credited to different people for a single song. | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,819 |
| | Posted: | | | | Many, many moons ago when Dividers were introduced into Profiler I began using them for Effects companies.
The poo promptly hit the fan; with many users up in arms at my blatant disregard for the rules regarding the usage of dividers (not that the rules said any such thing, I may add)
Subsequently, I stopped contributing this information.
The very next release of Profiler introduced Group Dividers and the entire situation was moot. I wasn't wrong to use the dividers we had - Ken just came up with a better, more elegant solution.
I see no problem with using group dividers for Songwriters because it adds specific and relevant information to the music section.
As for polls....they mean nothing. They are just the forum passing wind.
Until Invelos say whether this use of dividers is wrong, there is nothing to stop users doing it.
All you have to think about is the thousands of people who don't frequent the forum. If only a few hundred of these see a profile with song dividers, like it, and adopt the practice, then a lot more profiles will have these added.
None of these people will now about some stupid poll and therefore could not be expected to adjust their behaviour.
This forum really does have delusions of grandeur when it comes to the rules. Decisions are made with little or no filtering to the general users. What's the point.
Personally, I've stopped contributing song dividers; but that has everything to do with not wanting to deal with NO voters and everything to do with wanting a quite contributing life. | | | | Last edited: by Pantheon |
| | Registered: December 27, 2009 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 5,131 |
| | Posted: | | | | I usually don't contribute song writers or song titles. On profiles that I update if they have song writers I will add the group divider with the title. I personally don't know why people have a problem with more information added to the database (Song titles, VFX companies, even for a sole supervisor, sound companies,ADR, loop group, additional voices.) I wouldn't vote against the addition of title divider for OMB.
I also do not pay attention to these straw polls. They have no authority of how things should be done just an opinion from 82 people. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 4,596 |
| | Posted: | | | | Neil is right. This debate and poll is pointless. Users will continue to submit what they want regardless. Perhaps when Ken decides to come out of his self-imposed exile we'll have a ruling or better yet, an actual update to the rule regarding this issue. Until that time...I'll just take my meds and sit quietly in the corner mumbling... "this is Not happening, this is Not happening"   | | | | My WebGenDVD online Collection |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Bad Father: Quote:
Perhaps when Ken decides to come out of his self-imposed exile we'll have a ruling or better yet, an actual update to the rule regarding this issue. Or even better still, an update to the online database that will allow us to contribute custom roles and make this issue moot. --------------- |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
The bolded section by me, would be extraneous and not necessary. If it is necessary, give me an example of a crew team that is not company headed. Japan Crew, Morocco Crew... | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Pantheon: Quote:
As for polls....they mean nothing. They are just the forum passing wind.
Until Invelos say whether this use of dividers is wrong, there is nothing to stop users doing it. I don't believe anybody said otherwise. In fact, I said the exact same thing...people that want to use the dividers are going to do so, regardless of what anybody else thinks. My point about the poll was, in my opinion, ignoring it show a complete disregard, and lack of respect, for the community. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 10, 2009 | | Posts: 2,248 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Bad Father: Quote:
Neil is right. This debate and poll is pointless. Users will continue to submit what they want regardless. Perhaps when Ken decides to come out of his self-imposed exile we'll have a ruling or better yet, an actual update to the rule regarding this issue. Until that time...I'll just take my meds and sit quietly in the corner mumbling...
"this is Not happening, this is Not happening"
Perhaps he is in talks with CNET |
| | Registered: October 6, 2008 | | Posts: 1,932 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting VirtualScot: Quote:
Perhaps he is in talks with CNET  ...  ... ... <FetalPosition> |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Japan Crew, Morocco Crew... And when I contribute those, I get no votes "Unit Crew not Allowed", so that musn't be a proper example either. Charlie |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Japan Crew, Morocco Crew...
And when I contribute those, I get no votes "Unit Crew not Allowed", so that musn't be a proper example either. I don't know what to tell you. I don't think I have ever gotten a single no vote when I have contributed them...of course, I just jinxed myself.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | The bad part about it, one of my latest set of contributions Kill Bill 1& 2 DVD and BD DVD's were converting from episode to group dividers for the location crew (both got accepted with all yes votes) BD's was copy of revised DVD credits (adding location crew) both got rejected, large majority of no votes  On the other hand, I haven't had a single profile (that I can remember) that contributes song titles in headers, that has been rejected. So while you may say that location crew is valid (which I do agree with), and I say song titles are valid, the people that vote for the profiles, nor the screeners have any consistency (nor apparently an idea of what to do) So while you may not agree, the only thing that is guaranteed to be a "crew grouping" at this point are Companies. (and this is not what the rule says) Charlie | | | | Last edited: by CharlieM |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
So while you may say that location crew is valid (which I do agree with), and I say song titles are valid, the people that vote for the profiles, nor the screeners have any consistency (nor apparently an idea of what to do) I think the screeners are pretty consistent--they consistently join with the majority. As to not knowing what to do, I think controversial things should be left out of the online database. Just go with the lowest common denominator and leave the other things for people to put into their local databases. Keep the online simple and basic. --------------- |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting scotthm: Quote:
Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
So while you may say that location crew is valid (which I do agree with), and I say song titles are valid, the people that vote for the profiles, nor the screeners have any consistency (nor apparently an idea of what to do)
I think the screeners are pretty consistent--they consistently join with the majority.
As to not knowing what to do, I think controversial things should be left out of the online database. Just go with the lowest common denominator and leave the other things for people to put into their local databases. Keep the online simple and basic.
--------------- As far as the bolded, then why have rules. I tried to make movies of the same title the same, since majority rules, we have in the online 2 different crew lists. How does this serve anyone? the rest Where as I think the opposite. Allow what can be done, and as much info (within guidelines) in the online. It is easier to remove (if a person chooses to do so), than it is to alter just for the online. With Crew dividers being used to designate Songs or location crew (and to be honest I don't see the issue with second units, aerial units, underwater units aside from being expressly forbidden by the rules) as long as the job type underneath properly fits within profiler's guides, then I do not see a problem. We are still contributing; Song writers Makeup Special Effects Art Directors and others included in the crew list With crew dividers, we are not asking to contribute caterers, casting people, stunt coordinators, or any other job title not within the list. We are only asking to be allowed to add context to the jobs we have, which was no different than the argument for companies within dividers. At least these dividers do not add costume supervisors to a costume designer option, or special effects to visual effects. The only people that are really against this, are people that want the online to be as simple as possible. I would like, in the end, for the online DB to be as complete as possible. Charlie | | | | Last edited: by CharlieM |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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