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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Latest Poll Archive footage |
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| Registered: December 10, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 3,004 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting ateo357: Quote:
So if there is a sporting event on a TV, we get to list all players, umps, coaches, refs as uncredited archive.
or when it is based on a true-life event, and during the main cast credit role, when they show the actor and the real life person next to each other. The real-life gets a uncredited listing?
There are so many profiles that need to be updated or corrected I can't see why anyone would want to spend time and effort on uncredited, archive. It would be optional, like any uncredited actors. No one is obligating you to redo all the casts. Plenty of movies, especially documentaries, have significant use of archive footage to move the narrative, not just a TV in the background. |
| | Registered: December 27, 2009 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 5,131 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote:
Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
So if there is a sporting event on a TV, we get to list all players, umps, coaches, refs as uncredited archive.
or when it is based on a true-life event, and during the main cast credit role, when they show the actor and the real life person next to each other. The real-life gets a uncredited listing?
There are so many profiles that need to be updated or corrected I can't see why anyone would want to spend time and effort on uncredited, archive.
It would be optional, like any uncredited actors. No one is obligating you to redo all the casts. Plenty of movies, especially documentaries, have significant use of archive footage to move the narrative, not just a TV in the background. Even for Documentaries, if they are not interviewed for the actual documentary I don't think the should be listed. I know I could just deleted them out of my database, but then I can't contribute anything for that profile, because I don't have the uncredited archive footage credits. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kathy: Quote:
I know that polls are not "the rules" but it seems that the vast majority in this poll feel that archive actors are not considered to be uncredited cast and should not be included.
IMHO, and based on the poll's results, this data should be kept local until Ken weighs in on the matter. The only reason I disagree with the poll is that, as I pointed out before, some shows...Stargate SG-1 is one...credit these actors that are in archive footage. Since they are allowed when credited, it doesn't make any sense to prohibit them when they aren't. Quote:
Otherwise the data will be removed, added, removed, added etc. depending on where one stands on the issue.
Personally, I like having this type of information in my database but I will vote "no" on these contributions until Ken settles the issue. The rules say, "If a user is following the Contribution Rules and his/her data is accurate, and the contribution replaces data which is inaccurate or violates these Contribution Rules, a "No" vote is considered an abuse of the voting privilege and should be avoided when possible." Since these contributions don't violate the Contribution Rules, I don't see how anybody can vote 'no' to them.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting ateo357: Quote:
So if there is a sporting event on a TV, we get to list all players, umps, coaches, refs as uncredited archive. There is a difference between archive footage, from other films/episodes in a series, and footage shown on a TV in the background. One is part of the actual story and the other is set dressing. Quote:
or when it is based on a true-life event, and during the main cast credit role, when they show the actor and the real life person next to each other. The real-life gets a uncredited listing? Why not? When a director/producer/big name actor does nothing but show up in a scene, we add them. Why would this be any different? Quote:
There are so many profiles that need to be updated or corrected I can't see why anyone would want to spend time and effort on uncredited, archive. For the same reason people would spend time and effort researching the BY or common name of sound mixer or make-up artist...because it is data that they feel is important. As long as it doesn't violate the rules, which it doesn't, I don't know why anybody should care. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
The rules say, "If a user is following the Contribution Rules and his/her data is accurate, and the contribution replaces data which is inaccurate or violates these Contribution Rules, a "No" vote is considered an abuse of the voting privilege and should be avoided when possible." Since these contributions don't violate the Contribution Rules, I don't see how anybody can vote 'no' to them. I vote based on my understanding of the rules. I do not believe that, with a few very rare exceptions, archive Cast are Uncredited Cast. Therefore, IMHO, they are not contributable. As the poll indicates, the majority of the voters agree but I will concede that this is a grey area and that there is not a "correct" or clear cut answer. This topic reminds me of the Unit/Location Cast and Crew situation. Some feel that location Cast and Crew are allowable, others believe their inclusion violates invelos rules. Since Ken and invelos have not weighed in on the matter in these situations the voters have no choice but to decide for themselves what is correct based on their understanding of the contribution process. In my case, I voted "no" and posted this forums' link to allow other voters and the screeners to assess the situation more clearly. |
| | Registered: December 27, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,131 |
| | Posted: | | | | The simplest solution would be like crew credits with the other section. Have a "Other Section" for cast that could have uncredited actors in the film, archive footage credits ADR and Loop Group. and you could either upload or download seperate from the cast. | | | | Last edited: by ateo357 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kathy: Quote:
I vote based on my understanding of the rules. I do not believe that, with a few very rare exceptions, archive Cast are Uncredited Cast. Therefore, IMHO, they are not contributable. Based on what part of the rules? I am not trying to be difficult, I also vote based on my understanding of the rules, as everyone should, but I just don't see it so I am curious as to where you get that from. While I may not agree with your logic, I do want to understand it. Quote:
As the poll indicates, the majority of the voters agree but I will concede that this is a grey area and that there is not a "correct" or clear cut answer. The poll does not ask whether or not it is against the rules, it asks whether or not they should be included, so I don't believe the majority of voters believe it is against the rules, they just don't like them. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting Kathy:
Quote:
I vote based on my understanding of the rules. I do not believe that, with a few very rare exceptions, archive Cast are Uncredited Cast. Therefore, IMHO, they are not contributable.
Based on what part of the rules? Here is the relevant section. I have bolded the word I feel is most important: "Uncredited actors may be listed in alphabetical order following all credited actors. Use the "Uncredited" checkbox to indicate these. Uncredited actors are not required entries." For example, in the profile I just voted "no" on Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini were added. Since neither of them are actors I believe their inclusion violates invelos' rules. | | | | Last edited: by Kathy |
| | Registered: December 10, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,004 |
| | Posted: | | | | That section would also disallow the credited cast in most documentaries and allow Sarah Michelle Gellar in Night Watch, where Buffy is playing on a background TV. |
| | Registered: December 27, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,131 |
| | Posted: | | | | Archive footage is nothing more than a visual prop to add a historical basis or date to a film. Just like Hitler's Olympic address in "Contact", The JFK assasination film in the movie "JFK". The Movie Tremors (Bacon & Ward) showing in the theater in "Live from Baghdad". The Movie News showed in the theater in "Pearl Harbor. Unless the visual prop was made for the movie it is in, it shouldn't be credited. Even the digitally altered clips from "Forrest Gump". |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,879 |
| | Posted: | | | | My personal opinion is that uncredited archive footage should not be listed in cast lists. Period.
If, as in the Stargate examples, this cast is credited that's fine. On rare occasions you have credited cast whose sequence was removed from the film, but they still get listed. Because they're credited.
I think this would mostly affect documentaries, especially historical docs. Let's look at an example here: most documentaries made dealing with Nazi Germany were made after WWII. Why list Hitler as appearing in these films, when what he actually appears in is historical footage used in the film? At that point, where do you stop? Should we list Lincoln, Davis, Lee and Grant as appearing in Ken Burns Civil War because pictures of them appear in the film? It would be absurd to do so, at least in my opinion. | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote:
...and allow Sarah Michelle Gellar in Night Watch, where Buffy is playing on a background TV. Why? <sarcasm> Would you include Tony the Tiger if a cereal commercial was on the background TV? Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote:
That section would also disallow the credited cast in most documentaries... Why would Credited Cast not be listed? Documentaries by their very nature feature non-actors and so differ from other films. The admissability of achival footage/uncredited Cast is of particular importance for documenarties and why I wish invelos would give us guideness on this issue. Edit: Personally I don't think we can or should allow archival footage for the reasons found throughout this thread. | | | | Last edited: by Kathy |
| | Registered: December 10, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,004 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kathy: Quote:
Why would Credited Cast not be listed? So non-actors are cast? |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,245 |
| | Posted: | | | | Yup, non-actors can be cast. Especially if they are interviewed for the documentary. Usually they are identified by on-screen text.
They aren't Archive Footage since they are interviewed and not shown on a background TV.
Not to muddle things more, but what about films such as Forrest Gump where they insert Gump into historical footage and actually have these "archive footage people" interacting with him. Do we credit all of these people too or are they just a visual effect.
What about an episode of Family Guy where they insert random shots of archive footage into an episode. For example early in the series they would insert some footage of a singer and this singer would sing for minutes. The singer isn't on a tv or anything, it's a full screen video clip. Do we credit the singer too? |
| | Registered: December 27, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,131 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote:
Quoting Kathy:
Quote:
Why would Credited Cast not be listed?
So non-actors are cast? Cast is a collection of people in a movie. There are many times when they shoot in Chicago they use News anchors or reporters who are not actors by trade. They are still credited in the cast roll. |
| | Registered: December 27, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,131 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CubbyUps: Quote:
Yup, non-actors can be cast. Especially if they are interviewed for the documentary. Usually they are identified by on-screen text.
They aren't Archive Footage since they are interviewed and not shown on a background TV.
Not to muddle things more, but what about films such as Forrest Gump where they insert Gump into historical footage and actually have these "archive footage people" interacting with him. Do we credit all of these people too or are they just a visual effect.
What about an episode of Family Guy where they insert random shots of archive footage into an episode. For example early in the series they would insert some footage of a singer and this singer would sing for minutes. The singer isn't on a tv or anything, it's a full screen video clip. Do we credit the singer too? I would consider them not creditable. Just another type of Visual Effect to enhance a scene. But there are always exceptions to the norm. |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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