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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Desktop Technical Support |
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import cast from imdb ? |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Surfeur: If you truly accept what Ken has said then end your repetitive prattle that you introduce at everu opportunity. you do NOT possess the knowledge necessary to be able ascertain whether something is a typo or NOT, and you are not a mystic. You are not the actor, you are not one of the filmmakers and you certainly did not participate inthe construction of a credit list for ANY movie. You can only state that you perceive to be a typo, you do not KNOW factually, many "typos" are intentional for whatever reasons. You simply don't possess the knowledge, sir, I know that you think you do, but you have NOT communicated with the actor or the filmmaker, and even if you had it would NOT change wjhat the credit IS, as opposed to what you think it is, that's part of the difference between FACT and imagination. You and look at the ON SCREEN credit and we both see de Tilière, you start going on about a 2nd l and i say where is it it does not appear On screen. And you respond with "Well, I know"...so what about what you think you know...that is NOT what the credit says. So park your imagination and just deal with the DATA, the real DATA,not what you think it SHOULD be, based only upon what is in your head as opposed to the data that everybody can see. I haven't seen anythingthat will turn YOU into a projector that will let all of us visually partake of your vast knowledge. BTW Yves, I would much prefer to pay you a compliment as I did earlier today, as opposed to chewing on your drumstick, the drumstick I will be gnawing on in a couple of days will be lot more tender.  Skip  | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
I was anwering to what you wrote: "I don't think I have ever seen a post about the spelling of some guys name. Bad choice of words on my part then. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 79 |
| | Posted: | | | | I’m slightly saddened to see yet another multi-page thread on correct data entry where IMDb is trashed for having incorrect data and forum members accuse each other of lack of comprehension of data/database/data models and so on. And again the discussion never rises above the realm of technicalities.
One thing the good people at IMDb understand very well is that their data is there to serve a purpose, which is to provide visitors to IMDb.com with information about films. As such, a listing of ‘Captain James T. Kirk’ is correct as it provides the visitor more useful information than just ‘Kirk’. That’s how you ensure repeat visits.
Similarly, we contribute data to Invelos for a purpose. To some members, this whole thing boils down to a huge exercise in data entry, without much reflection on the usefulness of the data. To me, and I believe the majority of regular DVDP users, having megabyte upon megabyte of ‘correct’ data in my database means nothing. What matters is the useful information I can extract from that database using the program on my computer.
What I would like to see more of in these discussions are arguments anchored in actual DVDP use cases and adding value to the proposition that DVDP offers to users, rather than just “copy what’s on screen!”. I’m afraid if Ken allows the direction of the product and contribution rules to be determined by discussions like this one, that DVDP will become less and less relevant to more casual users. ‘FRANCOIS > Francois’ is a prime example where usefulness has lost out to the myopic focus on data entry concerns. I don’t think you’ll find many real-life situations where mangling somebody’s name is obligatory because the letters making up the name are seen as more important than the name itself. It just seems 100% wrong to me and I’m surprised that so few other posters feel that way.
I’m not advocating that we abandon the contribution rules, but we have to realise that any set of rules is completely arbitrary if it does not derive from an analysis of the high-level goals and objectives of the product. I haven’t seen any evidence of such an exercise. Regardless of the rule set there will be contentious issues where we all need to take a step back and consider why we purchased DVDP in the first place before deciding how we want the data entered.
Please don’t see this as criticism. You all make good arguments and the passion you display for this product is wonderful to see. However, on occasion a more dispassionate view can be useful.
Dag |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Regardless of what you might think, the rules were derived from a dispassionate view. An example that you brought up, FRANCOIS = Francois, is a perfect example. I, and quite a few others, were more than happy to defer to our French friends and enter it as 'François'. In spite of that agreement, Ken took a dispassionate view, and decided it was a straight one to one translation...'C' = 'c' and 'Ç' = 'ç'.
While you may feel the rules are arbitrary, they do serve a function...standardizing the data. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Dag:
It is clear what sort of data that you want and free to achieve that objective locally. The point remnains that the data in IMDb is not based reality but ONLY in some users imagination. They don't make movies and never have, yet they believe they know better than the people who DO make movies and evidently you do as well. A database that serves many tens or hundreds of thousands of users is best created with a basis in reality, while allowing the users the freedom to customize the data to their hearts content, this has always been the big strength of DVDProfiler and continues to do this day in this effort. there is absolutely a place for imaginary data that is credited the way a user wants, ordered as he wants, and so forth and that is YOUR LOCAL database, imaginary has no place in the Online. It is too bad that you seem to not understand these basic precepts of database design, but the design of profiler is as it should be, and it's design have garnered it many kudios over the years, along with numerous requests to license our data for use in Media centers...why because of our level of accuracy. I see IMDb being used by many databases on the Internet, I do NOT see them being licensed for use in Media centers, their level of accuarcy and non-documented data work agauinst them for many purposes..
I am sorry you don't like the answers, Dag,but answers they are and the strength of Profiler is that you are not tied to the online you can download that data and then manipulate it in any form you wish.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: September 29, 2008 | | Posts: 384 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dag Ove: Quote:
I’m slightly saddened to see yet another multi-page thread on correct data entry where IMDb is trashed for having incorrect data and forum members accuse each other of lack of comprehension of data/database/data models and so on. And again the discussion never rises above the realm of technicalities.
One thing the good people at IMDb understand very well is that their data is there to serve a purpose, which is to provide visitors to IMDb.com with information about films. As such, a listing of ‘Captain James T. Kirk’ is correct as it provides the visitor more useful information than just ‘Kirk’. That’s how you ensure repeat visits.
Similarly, we contribute data to Invelos for a purpose. To some members, this whole thing boils down to a huge exercise in data entry, without much reflection on the usefulness of the data. To me, and I believe the majority of regular DVDP users, having megabyte upon megabyte of ‘correct’ data in my database means nothing. What matters is the useful information I can extract from that database using the program on my computer.
What I would like to see more of in these discussions are arguments anchored in actual DVDP use cases and adding value to the proposition that DVDP offers to users, rather than just “copy what’s on screen!”. I’m afraid if Ken allows the direction of the product and contribution rules to be determined by discussions like this one, that DVDP will become less and less relevant to more casual users. ‘FRANCOIS > Francois’ is a prime example where usefulness has lost out to the myopic focus on data entry concerns. I don’t think you’ll find many real-life situations where mangling somebody’s name is obligatory because the letters making up the name are seen as more important than the name itself. It just seems 100% wrong to me and I’m surprised that so few other posters feel that way.
I’m not advocating that we abandon the contribution rules, but we have to realise that any set of rules is completely arbitrary if it does not derive from an analysis of the high-level goals and objectives of the product. I haven’t seen any evidence of such an exercise. Regardless of the rule set there will be contentious issues where we all need to take a step back and consider why we purchased DVDP in the first place before deciding how we want the data entered.
Please don’t see this as criticism. You all make good arguments and the passion you display for this product is wonderful to see. However, on occasion a more dispassionate view can be useful.
Dag  Great post and a lot of what I've been thinking while reading this whole thread but couldn't put to words. I think we have a few hardliners that are possibly making it a less useful program for the casual users (which I would bargain is the much larger chunk of this program's user base). Not to say these hardliners don't have good points and I completely agree with many of them, but when it comes down to "following the rules" vs. "useful data" I really feel in every situation we should pick the useful data. Now let me be clear that I follow contribution rules to a letter and don't use IMDB as my main source for data, but I find myself cringing sometimes when I contribute what I know is complete nonsense in terms of how we can use the data. This is when I really wish the screeners would use their own "common sense" (  ) and lock down things that will ultimately make this program more "useful" for the casual user without sacrificing good data entry techniques which so many are adamant about. I do believe though that many of user's problems would be solved if Ken revamped the Cast/Crew database to be a separate database, therefor using a similar system that IMDB uses without sacrificing how it is viewed on screen. Bottom line: IMDB is a far superior system in many areas when compared to DVDprofiler... but in other ways DVDprofiler is worlds better than IMDB. DVDprofiler needs only to incorporate some of the things that make IMDB so appealing to so many people to truly make DVDprofiler king!  | | | | "The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 599 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dag Ove: Quote:
I’m slightly saddened to see yet another multi-page thread on correct data entry where IMDb is trashed for having incorrect data and forum members accuse each other of lack of comprehension of data/database/data models and so on. And again the discussion never rises above the realm of technicalities.
One thing the good people at IMDb understand very well is that their data is there to serve a purpose, which is to provide visitors to IMDb.com with information about films. As such, a listing of ‘Captain James T. Kirk’ is correct as it provides the visitor more useful information than just ‘Kirk’. That’s how you ensure repeat visits.
Similarly, we contribute data to Invelos for a purpose. To some members, this whole thing boils down to a huge exercise in data entry, without much reflection on the usefulness of the data. To me, and I believe the majority of regular DVDP users, having megabyte upon megabyte of ‘correct’ data in my database means nothing. What matters is the useful information I can extract from that database using the program on my computer.
What I would like to see more of in these discussions are arguments anchored in actual DVDP use cases and adding value to the proposition that DVDP offers to users, rather than just “copy what’s on screen!”. I’m afraid if Ken allows the direction of the product and contribution rules to be determined by discussions like this one, that DVDP will become less and less relevant to more casual users. ‘FRANCOIS > Francois’ is a prime example where usefulness has lost out to the myopic focus on data entry concerns. I don’t think you’ll find many real-life situations where mangling somebody’s name is obligatory because the letters making up the name are seen as more important than the name itself. It just seems 100% wrong to me and I’m surprised that so few other posters feel that way.
I’m not advocating that we abandon the contribution rules, but we have to realise that any set of rules is completely arbitrary if it does not derive from an analysis of the high-level goals and objectives of the product. I haven’t seen any evidence of such an exercise. Regardless of the rule set there will be contentious issues where we all need to take a step back and consider why we purchased DVDP in the first place before deciding how we want the data entered.
Please don’t see this as criticism. You all make good arguments and the passion you display for this product is wonderful to see. However, on occasion a more dispassionate view can be useful.
Dag Excellent post |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Bottom Line: Vittra: UIf Dag and Surfeur would purt even half the energy into understanding the system and supporting the Rules, jjust HALF, they would be amazed at the potential upside for tghis program. The upside is still there and will be achieved, but it could be far faster. This program has every potential to be far and away the most powerful, complete AND accurate entertainment database in the world. As I have pointed numerous times, for those who are really that much in love with IMDb, they can track 10,000 titles for FREE, the downside is that you will have all of the inccuracies that exist within their system. As I have also stated numerous times, I am just as lazy as any of you, and back in the day I was happily scraping data from IMDb, it was easy and painless...sort of. But then we discovered that Ken had prohibited the use of IMDb data, I understood the reason for it, so I turned my attention to a simple problem if we can't use them , then what can we use...that answer was obvious and easy, the film credits. So I started playing with the film credits and lo behold it did not take long to realize the mess that is IMDb, their database and their users are both completely out of control, they have Rules but they make no attempt to enforce them. Therefors you have Cast/Crew data thast is erroneousbecause it is invented, listing Orders which are likewise invented, ofttime I found their disc data to be in error, and errors in nearly every one of their categories Like I said take half the energy that you expend resisting and complaining about the Rules and invest it into the Program and watch how much faster you will see the improvements come. Skip  | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 28, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,299 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dag Ove: Quote:
It just seems 100% wrong to me and I’m surprised that so few other posters feel that way. A lot of what you say I agree with, and I don't think there's just a few of us that feel that way. I do think there's just a few who wish to engage in bickering about it. That said there's a certain method to the madness, in that having strict rules for data entry and sourcing of that data helps prevent us having a big mess on our hands. I do agree that we've found ourselves on the other end of the spectrum now, where usefulness have fallen by the wayside in favour of strict adherence to rules which, while good the vast majority of the time, sometime can produces things like Star Wars The Phantom Menace I. But, as things stand right now, I think that's a necessary byproduct of having a system that in most respects work very well. The only way around it that I can see is for Invelos to hire someone to make data interpretation their full time job. We can't leave it up to users to interpret the data, because 10 people may very well end up interpreting it 10 different ways, and since that's not an option, and since Invelos is too small of a company to be hiring full-time data interpretation people, we're stuck with unbending rules. KM | | | Tags, tags, bo bags, banana fana fo fags, mi my mo mags, TAGS!
Dolly's not alone. You can also clone profiles.
You've got questions? You've got answers? Take the DVD Profiler Wiki for a spin. | | | | Last edited: by Astrakan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Astra: You are truly showing the beginnings of understanding. I say that as a compliment. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: September 29, 2008 | | Posts: 384 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Woola: Quote:
Bottom Line: Vittra:
UIf Dag and Surfeur would purt even half the energy into understanding the system and supporting the Rules, jjust HALF, they would be amazed at the potential upside for tghis program. The upside is still there and will be achieved, but it could be far faster. This program has every potential to be far and away the most powerful, complete AND accurate entertainment database in the world.
As I have pointed numerous times, for those who are really that much in love with IMDb, they can track 10,000 titles for FREE, the downside is that you will have all of the inccuracies that exist within their system.
As I have also stated numerous times, I am just as lazy as any of you, and back in the day I was happily scraping data from IMDb, it was easy and painless...sort of. But then we discovered that Ken had prohibited the use of IMDb data, I understood the reason for it, so I turned my attention to a simple problem if we can't use them , then what can we use...that answer was obvious and easy, the film credits. So I started playing with the film credits and lo behold it did not take long to realize the mess that is IMDb, their database and their users are both completely out of control, they have Rules but they make no attempt to enforce them. Therefors you have Cast/Crew data thast is erroneousbecause it is invented, listing Orders which are likewise invented, ofttime I found their disc data to be in error, and errors in nearly every one of their categories
Like I said take half the energy that you expend resisting and complaining about the Rules and invest it into the Program and watch how much faster you will see the improvements come.
Skip Just to be perfectly clear, I am not advocating the scraping of IMDB data for use in this database. I fully support the use of credits as our basis. The problem arises with situations like Astrakan states (good post btw) in how strictly we sometimes follow the rules thereby sacrificing the usefulness of the data. I really do wish (although don't see it ever happening) Astrakan's idea of having a data interpreter. This was what I was getting at by saying the screeners would allow things that broke the rules so long as they were in line with the spirit of the rules and made for a better database. So while I do not believe we should copy IMDB data, I do believe this program is in dire need of some changes if it ever wants to become even close to as comprehensive as IMDB as far as "useful" data. Namely, as I expressed earlier a complete cast/crew revamp. The linking system in DVDprofiler is too cumbersome and time consuming to even get a couple of actors/actresses to link properly. Ultimately though, I believe the program should be a bit more concerned about usefulness than the strict guidelines set upon by a small yet vocal group that is very much into the data entry process. And as for putting effort into contributing rather than complaining...I do quite a bit of contributing and barely any complaining. I love the program, which is why I want to see it improved and succeed. If you have a job you love, that doesn't mean you can't try to think of ways to improve how things run. You do the work regardless, but there will always be parts of that job you may dislike and wish were different. Nothing wrong with a bit of constructive criticism.  Also let me be clear that I'm not saying to due away with the rules either, but sometimes the rules "force" us to make some really silly data contributions. A nice balance is something I think we should strive for. | | | | "The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire | | | | Last edited: by Vittra |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Vittra: Quote:
Also let me be clear that I'm not saying to due away with the rules either, but sometimes the rules "force" us to make some really silly data contributions. A nice balance is something I think we should strive for. That was exactly my idea when I proposed this modification to the rules. But I must admit that this idea is in minority among forum users, and most people here prefer stupid data "per the rules" than correct useful data. | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: December 22, 2008 | | Posts: 76 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dag Ove: Quote:
I’m slightly saddened to see yet another multi-page thread on correct data entry where IMDb is trashed for having incorrect data and forum members accuse each other of lack of comprehension of data/database/data models and so on. And again the discussion never rises above the realm of technicalities.
One thing the good people at IMDb understand very well is that their data is there to serve a purpose, which is to provide visitors to IMDb.com with information about films. As such, a listing of ‘Captain James T. Kirk’ is correct as it provides the visitor more useful information than just ‘Kirk’. That’s how you ensure repeat visits.
Similarly, we contribute data to Invelos for a purpose. To some members, this whole thing boils down to a huge exercise in data entry, without much reflection on the usefulness of the data. To me, and I believe the majority of regular DVDP users, having megabyte upon megabyte of ‘correct’ data in my database means nothing. What matters is the useful information I can extract from that database using the program on my computer.
What I would like to see more of in these discussions are arguments anchored in actual DVDP use cases and adding value to the proposition that DVDP offers to users, rather than just “copy what’s on screen!”. I’m afraid if Ken allows the direction of the product and contribution rules to be determined by discussions like this one, that DVDP will become less and less relevant to more casual users. ‘FRANCOIS > Francois’ is a prime example where usefulness has lost out to the myopic focus on data entry concerns. I don’t think you’ll find many real-life situations where mangling somebody’s name is obligatory because the letters making up the name are seen as more important than the name itself. It just seems 100% wrong to me and I’m surprised that so few other posters feel that way.
I’m not advocating that we abandon the contribution rules, but we have to realise that any set of rules is completely arbitrary if it does not derive from an analysis of the high-level goals and objectives of the product. I haven’t seen any evidence of such an exercise. Regardless of the rule set there will be contentious issues where we all need to take a step back and consider why we purchased DVDP in the first place before deciding how we want the data entered.
Please don’t see this as criticism. You all make good arguments and the passion you display for this product is wonderful to see. However, on occasion a more dispassionate view can be useful.
Dag Wow, EXCELLENT post! Well thought out, intelligent and non-confrontational. I understand what you're saying 100%. And yes, I also understand that the current rules do not support your (and my) views. So, for anyone reading this that wants to jump on my back, I'm not advocating using IMDB data just because I agree with Vittra's post. It's possible to have the best of both worlds, but would require massive changes to the program, and more importantly, the back end database. That would be ideal, then the people who want to view only the data that was obtained from "on screen", can. And those that want an IMDB like data presentation and linking can have that too. However, Ken is just one person, and as far as I know, they can't clone people (just sheep!). So, for now, follow the rules and keep "useful" data local only.  Poo |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | I think Dag Ove made an excellent point. There are two sides to the story: it's important to get accurate, correct data but one must also look at what use that data will be. Some points that come to mind:
- what is accurate data? For some it's the exact copy-paste of credits, for others it's data that lists a person's correct name, without spelling errors or other variations. There already, I feel the userbase is divided
- what use is the data? Some only wish to use it apparently to check the credits of a certain movie, but others want to use it for cross linking or other data-driven reports.
I personally think that the current rule-set is a great start to get uniform data into the online database ... but it's a starting point in my opinion and not the end point. It's in need of fine-tuning (and not just for credits, also for other data) so it can move with the ever-changing realities of life and wishes of the userbase.
On a side note, although a minor issue, MadMartian, I did find a few spelling errors in names in some profiles, most related to errors in romanizing Eastern names. One example that comes to mind:
Shidou Nakamura: both Shidou and Shidô are correct, but the profiles where his name is written as Shido are incorrect (it doesn't match any of the existing romanization rules)
I think all these issues can pretty easily be solved by a tool that is often overlooked: the credited as feature. The great thing about it is that you can still type the name of the person as it appears in the credits but at the same time also enter his or her correct name and even allow it to link correctly in the local database. I've been using this extensively to correct errors in credits and all these submissions get accepted into the online, since I respect the rules by entering the name as it appears on-screen, while adding the correct name as well. | | | Blu-ray collection
DVD collection
My Games
My Trophies | | | | Last edited: by Taro |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Poo:
Data is useful only if it is correct, the same applies to linking. IMDb is anything BUT accurate. You already have the best of both worlds, BTW, the Online is baserd on the Actual data that is associated with the film. But your local, as I hacve said before, if IMDb is what really turns you on, that is your prerogative, you simply cannot contribute and would no doubt not be interested in the Online data or some of it at any rate. There is NO way BTW to create the world you envision, as the FIRST thing it would require would be Invelos spending whatever IMDBs licensing fee would be, a minimum of $15,000 Annually. This would likely have two immediate effects, the cost of the program would have to go up, probably in the area of $50 or $60, secondly since it is an Annual license fee, then it would mean that upgrades would likely not be free.
In all sincerity and without being sarcastic, Poo and others. There are already lots of other programs out there that are paying the license fee to IMDb, go use them. This program has chosen a different path, and neither IMDb nor any of those of those other programs are in any need of being duplicated.
Concentrate on making this program the best that it can be, that merans follow its Rules and stop complaining about it. Even though I am not happy with Ken's execution of his linking, IF we can get that linking corrected, which will take an intense effort on the part of everyone to VERIFY tyhat there particular copy of whatever movie it is is correctly listed, then Ken's linking will be many times stronger than IMDb has ever even thought about. I understand why people like IMDb, it is human nature, tehy are allowed to create a trash database that serves their particular needs and they care not about an basis for accuracy and IMDb will do nothing to stop you. I understand what astrakan's comment was about, what he doesn't understand is the root causes of the problem he refers to and is not really working to fix it. Do I see surfeur suddenly having an epiphany and encouraging others in his Region/Country to start checking their titles and make sure they are up to snuff, that would really useful, and would bring the CLT that much closer to real functionality, no he would prefer to drone on about his knowledge about names and typos. Come on guys let's pull TOGETHER and get this thing where it needs to be. Start with CE3k and make sure all the Truffaut listings are correct so that we can begin to get correct linking, not correct the way somebody THINKS it should be, but CORRECT to what the Rules AND Ken have said they should be. I am NOT going to support what some other users are doing, and making global changes to what they do not own based on what they do, users that do that are only laying a minefield for the rest of us. We know that many of CE3K listings appear to be INCORRECT, but they need to be verified, because who knows in some areas the credit may actually be different...we can't know until they have been actually verified by people who actually OWN them.
What beats me is that if you like IMDb so much then why did you come to Profiler? Unfortunately it also human nature to try and create anything in every individual's image, and again there is little concern in that process for the whole. I can understand your desires and the Program can achieve your desires, perhaps not in the way you would like, but it will do it
But why you people want to sit on the sidelines and whine because it isn't done the way YOU want it instead of pitching in, rolling up your shirt sleeves and getting to it to make it better for us all. I am sorry I will never go along with it, Poo, you have 500 titles have you personally gone through and verified each and every one of the against the online data and the Rules, I bet you haven't. Each and every title I own has been verified at least ONE time against the Online and the ACTUAL data, I wish I had access to my whole collection right now, because they need to re-verified. I have one objective and that is to try and make the database the most usable that it can be for YOU and others. I let you guys beat me down, and I have been largely sitting on the sidelines Contribution-wise, NO MORE. Get outta my way, I am going to open the floodgates and try and wrestle the part of the database that I can impact, which is the near 5000 Profiles that I own, along with several hundred pre-releases which have never been entered to the database by me nor anyone else. I welcome input as I am human and make mistakes and i want the data correct, that is the only way to create a database that will ultimately be useful for YOU. Now join me or not, if you don't want to help getb this monster in shape, then do me a favor quit carping about it, because I for one am sick and tired of hearing it. The challenge has been laid down, what are YOU giong to do about it.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
I think Dag Ove made an excellent point. There are two sides to the story: it's important to get accurate, correct data but one must also look at what use that data will be. Some points that come to mind:
- what is accurate data? For some it's the exact copy-paste of credits, for others it's data that lists a person's correct name, without spelling errors or other variations. There already, I feel the userbase is divided
- what use is the data? Some only wish to use it apparently to check the credits of a certain movie, but others want to use it for cross linking or other data-driven reports.
I personally think that the current rule-set is a great start to get uniform data into the online database ... but it's a starting point in my opinion and not the end point. It's in need of fine-tuning (and not just for credits, also for other data) so it can move with the ever-changing realities of life and wishes of the userbase.
On a side note, although a minor issue, MadMartian, I did find a few spelling errors in names in some profiles, most related to errors in romanizing Eastern names. One example that comes to mind:
Shidou Nakamura: both Shidou and Shidô are correct, but the profiles where his name is written as Shido are incorrect (it doesn't match any of the existing romanization rules)
I think all these issues can pretty easily be solved by a tool that is often overlooked: the credited as feature. The great thing about it is that you can still type the name of the person as it appears in the credits but at the same time also enter his or her correct name and even allow it to link correctly in the local database. I've been using this extensively to correct errors in credits and all these submissions get accepted into the online, since I respect the rules by entering the name as it appears on-screen, while adding the correct name as well. What is accurate data you say? Accurate data is that data which is based in real hard factual data, NOT that data which resides in imagination or inside someone's head. You talk about correct name. Define CORRECT name. And how can you possibly KNOW that , the only person who KNOWS that is the person involved. As I have said before Taro, my name could listed in at least 25 different variants and I have used ALL of them at one time or other, if I were to list them how could you possibly besure that you were selecting the CORRECT variant without asking the principal...you can't, it is an impossibility. You can only claim to know something but you have know basis that is grounded in fact. The program recognizes this FACT which is why Ken created the MOST COMMONLY CREDITED NAME and the CLT to try and help determine that name, that may or may NOT be the "Correct" Name. now for those who imagine that they can determine the Correct name they camnn always do so locally and totally ignore the Online data. That is what you fail to comprehend, Taro.The Online is true to REAL hard data not imagined data, if people work at it it will do what most of youwant it to, but sitting on the sidelines and whining isnot going to accomplish anything for you or anyoneelse. The rules and the Program will be constantly evolving, andbeingtweaked, but it will not be as you wish it, Taro, the ONLINE must be based on hardd data, notimaginary data in any way...it serves too many users. You talk about the most famous buzz word, useability, but that is a buzz word withourt definition, just as with "common sense"your definition of useability is likelyto be different from mine or anyone else. That is why the ultimate useability is not answered by the Online data buyt by your local database where yiou make the Rules and the database is designed to serve YOUR needs. Tjos who talk about useability are nothing but selfish because what they REALLY mean is that they want the Online data to be pre-packaged in format that suits THEM and everyone else can go straight to .... BTW your refernce to cross-linking is very narrow and quite insulting. No one I know of certainly not me has any issue with cross-linking, the system as it exists right now was poorly executed and designed as it is dependant upon the input of users like you and me, you and I are going totry and follow the rules , but there are others who simply will not, and it is those that make the current linking system to be unworkable or nearly so, they actually do believe that they KNOW the CORRECT name, no matter what the credit actually says, what the Rule says or even what Ken says. I remember before the Rules , Ken said very publicly that Sort=Title and people totally IGNORED him and continued with their manipulation of the system. Think about it in terms of the sort, Taro. Yo refer to Correct name....well somebody is absolutely convinced that James 003 is the correct Sort Name ...that way he can link all of his James Bond movies together, now along comes our friend Taro an dhe is looking for what....Goldfinger because that is after all the title of the film...right and what...you mean he can't find it...because some user has manipulated the database to sort ALL James Bond together. Don't you see the utter flaw in your arguments, what you want to do can be done...but it has NOTHING to do with the Online...absolutely NOTHING. From the viewpoint of linking system that also in reality hasnothing to do with the Online, it is a recognition that ALL users want a linking system and something was designed to facilitate that, but since the online itself is not searchable, it is an accomodation to the Community. It's major flaw is that it is dependant on user input, and those users inputting the data per the rules, IF that were truly a reasonable expectation then we could be confident that eventually we would have a viable linking system one day. But let's take Francois Truffaut; there are 40 or so listings for Francois Truffaut in CE3K but there are also at least 19 that probably erroneously list François Truffaut, now we know that this could be correct as Credit Lists are not universal, so I won't say categorically that the François Truffaut listings are incorrect, I would say there is a high probability that at least some of them are wrong, and some of the Francois Truffaut could also be wrong. The only ones that I can absolutely certify as being Francois Truffaut would be the two copies which I own, along with any cousins which might happen to use the Same Disc Id, I would not presume to say that any other credit is necessarily correct, they all need to reviewed then we may start to get a clear picture. Yes it is a big job, Taro, but IF you are raelly wanting a functional linking system, as it is right now that is the only way tostart downthat path. Were I Ken i would redesign the system so that it was not totally dependant on users inputting proper data, but that's me. What we all want CAN be achieved but it is going totake work, it won't happen magically. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Desktop Technical Support |
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