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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Is common sense a valid source? |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting xradman:
Quote:
Actor 10023 = Chow Yun Fat (or whatever Invelos chooses as a community name)
Cast102Movie23453 = Chow Yun-fat (or however he is credited in the movie 23453)
User 10023 = Yun-fat Chow (or whatever the user decides is the name he/she wants displayed for this actor in the local actor database)
In this system, what is the part of the name used for sorting?
That should be Chow, even if the name is displayed Chow Yun-fat (and Cruise when the name is displayed Tom Cruise). I think you cannot avoid "something" telling where is the family name (I favoured tickbox, but anything else with the same purpose would work...) I would get rid or all parsing, so it would be a one name field. For sorting purposes, we could add a sort name to your local actor database, so it would be Sort10023 = Chow Yun-fat. | | | | My Home Theater |
| | Registered: July 31, 2008 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,506 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting xradman: Quote:
I would get rid or all parsing, so it would be a one name field. For sorting purposes, we could add a sort name to your local actor database, so it would be Sort10023 = Chow Yun-fat. Someone suggested making sorting a local feature a few months ago & although quite a few liked the idea, others weren't so keen about having another local field to have to worry about. It would solve the parsing problem though so I was in favour of it. |
| | Registered: April 7, 2007 | | Posts: 357 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
In this system, what is the part of the name used for sorting?
That should be Chow, even if the name is displayed Chow Yun-fat (and Cruise when the name is displayed Tom Cruise). I think you cannot avoid "something" telling where is the family name (I favoured tickbox, but anything else with the same purpose would work...) Why? Chow can also be Chou Zhou T'sou or Chu there may be others it's the same character in Chinese just regional/optional anglicisations. That's going to be thousands of actors and and actresses each time even the IMDB for just those who have at some time been anglicised have over 1000. Yun Fat or Runfa (Same character again) will get you down to more manageable numbers. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Graveworm: Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
In this system, what is the part of the name used for sorting?
That should be Chow, even if the name is displayed Chow Yun-fat (and Cruise when the name is displayed Tom Cruise). I think you cannot avoid "something" telling where is the family name (I favoured tickbox, but anything else with the same purpose would work...)
Why? Chow can also be Chou Zhou T'sou or Chu there may be others it's the same character in Chinese just regional/optional anglicisations. That's going to be thousands of actors and and actresses each time even the IMDB for just those who have at some time been anglicised have over 1000. Yun Fat or Runfa (Same character again) will get you down to more manageable numbers. But it would be no worse than now. For people that don't care, I think system as I described would be more or less the same. For those that care about Asian name, they can link and romanize to their heart's content. | | | | My Home Theater |
| | Registered: April 7, 2007 | | Posts: 357 |
| | Posted: | | | | Xradman I like your solution a seperate cast crew database is an excellent idea with sort options. I was just oppsing the mandatory sorting on surnames for Asian titles. |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | Xradman: thank you for explaining the naming conventions in China and Korea and again, sorry for having misinterpreted before. Thanks to you, I have at least a basic understanding of Chinese and Korean names.
I see that there is quite a lot of support for a system with a linked cast and crew database. I would also be in favor of such a system and the way Vittra described seems very interesting to me. Basically, if I understood correctly, we could go about it like this:
For each cast or crew member, we would have:
- the credited as name
- the offiicial name (documented of course)
- if available, an alias (like The Rock or LL Cool J)
1. data is still submitted as it appears on the cover and in the credits, like we do now
2. later, submitters can link the correct official name to the cast and crew (which can very well happen to be the same as the credited as name), to which automatically the alias is linked, if available
3. if an official name doesn't exist yet, it can be submitted immediately linked to the corresponding credited as name, provided this is documented.
That way, we already have all the data in the online database.
Users then choose an option locally to display either the credited as name, the official name or the alias (if available) in their local database.
The advantage of the system would be:
- it caters to users like Skip, since nothing changes for them provided they choose the setting to display the credited as name
- it also caters to users like me who value cross linking, as we can set the option to only display the official name
- the work that has been done so far isn't lost, as the credited as name is still the basis for the submission. The offical name and alias are additional data linked to the already existing database.
- all this would require is adding one feature to DVD Profiler and creating the linked tables in the online database
What do you all think of this solution, suggested by Vittra? I personally can see this work and it would cater IMHO to both user groups (the "submit as appears on screen" as well as the "we want to cross link" crowd) | | | Blu-ray collection
DVD collection
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My Trophies |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
Xradman: thank you for explaining the naming conventions in China and Korea and again, sorry for having misinterpreted before. Thanks to you, I have at least a basic understanding of Chinese and Korean names.
I see that there is quite a lot of support for a system with a linked cast and crew database. I would also be in favor of such a system and the way Vittra described seems very interesting to me. Basically, if I understood correctly, we could go about it like this:
For each cast or crew member, we would have:
- the credited as name
- the offiicial name (documented of course)
- if available, an alias (like The Rock or LL Cool J)
1. data is still submitted as it appears on the cover and in the credits, like we do now
2. later, submitters can link the correct official name to the cast and crew (which can very well happen to be the same as the credited as name), to which automatically the alias is linked, if available
3. if an official name doesn't exist yet, it can be submitted immediately linked to the corresponding credited as name, provided this is documented.
That way, we already have all the data in the online database.
Users then choose an option locally to display either the credited as name, the official name or the alias (if available) in their local database.
The advantage of the system would be:
- it caters to users like Skip, since nothing changes for them provided they choose the setting to display the credited as name
- it also caters to users like me who value cross linking, as we can set the option to only display the official name
- the work that has been done so far isn't lost, as the credited as name is still the basis for the submission. The offical name and alias are additional data linked to the already existing database.
- all this would require is adding one feature to DVD Profiler and creating the linked tables in the online database
What do you all think of this solution, suggested by Vittra? I personally can see this work and it would cater IMHO to both user groups (the "submit as appears on screen" as well as the "we want to cross link" crowd) I would prefer that there is also a corresponding local name that I can alter to whatever I want. Invariably, there is going to be a conflict between what I think is correct for a name and what someone else thinks is correct. I think that's the only difference between my proposal and Vittra's proposal. | | | | My Home Theater |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | Personally, I too would like to see some sort of centralized cast/crew database developed with officially approved aliases attached to each of the names.
The fact of the matter is, this is precisely what the CLT is trying to accomplish, but on a profile by profile basis, each profile living in complete isolation from another. Even when we finally do agree on a common name, we only update maybe half of the total profiles in the online database associated with that person. All that work and we are still left with a mess.
A cast/crew database may be painful initially, but we've already demonstrated an immense willingness to try to conquer this problem just with all this CLT stuff. If we were to direct that same energy towards a centralized name database, at least we'd stand a better chance of successfully linking the entire online...not just the individual profiles that folks bothered to update.
Now that's a project that I could get behind. At least I would feel that any time/energy invested in cleaning up a particular person was (somewhat) final. My biggest beef with the current system is that there are so many people going in different directions that cast/crew updates actually are making my local database worse for linking, not better. Consequently, I tend to distrust and frequently flat out ignore those updates. I also find that I rarely bother to submit my own work in this area because I'm just adding to the "noise". | | | | Last edited: by mdnitoil |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting xradman: Quote:
Quoting Taro:
Quote:
Xradman: thank you for explaining the naming conventions in China and Korea and again, sorry for having misinterpreted before. Thanks to you, I have at least a basic understanding of Chinese and Korean names.
I see that there is quite a lot of support for a system with a linked cast and crew database. I would also be in favor of such a system and the way Vittra described seems very interesting to me. Basically, if I understood correctly, we could go about it like this:
For each cast or crew member, we would have:
- the credited as name
- the offiicial name (documented of course)
- if available, an alias (like The Rock or LL Cool J)
1. data is still submitted as it appears on the cover and in the credits, like we do now
2. later, submitters can link the correct official name to the cast and crew (which can very well happen to be the same as the credited as name), to which automatically the alias is linked, if available
3. if an official name doesn't exist yet, it can be submitted immediately linked to the corresponding credited as name, provided this is documented.
That way, we already have all the data in the online database.
Users then choose an option locally to display either the credited as name, the official name or the alias (if available) in their local database.
The advantage of the system would be:
- it caters to users like Skip, since nothing changes for them provided they choose the setting to display the credited as name
- it also caters to users like me who value cross linking, as we can set the option to only display the official name
- the work that has been done so far isn't lost, as the credited as name is still the basis for the submission. The offical name and alias are additional data linked to the already existing database.
- all this would require is adding one feature to DVD Profiler and creating the linked tables in the online database
What do you all think of this solution, suggested by Vittra? I personally can see this work and it would cater IMHO to both user groups (the "submit as appears on screen" as well as the "we want to cross link" crowd)
I would prefer that there is also a corresponding local name that I can alter to whatever I want. Invariably, there is going to be a conflict between what I think is correct for a name and what someone else thinks is correct. I think that's the only difference between my proposal and Vittra's proposal. I am trying to visualize what you are describing, xradman. However, I do one major issue that you have mentioned with respect to Online usage. If that is true, then I don't see how to bring it to the Online, we would be setting ping=pong battles over who thinks what is correct, endles updates as the "battles" rage. @ midnit does your proposed centralized Cast and crew accomadate BOTH As Credited and the for lack of a better term the cultural aspects. I thinkthe culture term is applicable because while not necessarily as big a deal or as far-reaching as the Asian name issue, there are parts of this that applies elsewhere as well. As long as what you are suggesting does not eliminate As Credited (Hard Data) whichh we ALL can see, I can see it, if not then no because it is no more than substitution user-interpretation for REAL DATA. It MUST handle both aspects, else we drag profiler down the road which has already been trod by others, not onl;y relative to naming itself, but if we are going to user-interpretation then what standard would be applied to ordering...more combat.<shakes head> No, the basis from which the central Cast/Crew database must be based on the Hard Data of the Credits. As I have said I can get behind something that supports BOTH As Credited and what I think we all acknowledge we should try to achieve, but NOT instead of in any way. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: September 29, 2008 | | Posts: 384 |
| | Posted: | | | | I think both xradman and I have pretty much the same idea, although he stated it in a bit more technical way. A seperate Cast/Crew database I believe is something we should be looking to go towards as it would solve a huge number of issues on these forums. As for the ping-pong of common name, as both xradman and I have stated, there would be a local feature to change the name to your liking so you can pick how it's displayed, so which name is chosen online would be a mute point. This is, in my opinion, the number one reason people use IMDB cast/crew data instead of using the online database. IMDB, no matter how much any of you may dislike them, has far superior linking. I believe we can get to that point and surpass them due to our database being based off of actual credits but as it stands we have a lot of work to do to even come close. It may be a lot of work initially, but will save the database a lot of work in the long run.  Skip: As for your concern, the as credited data would be retained because that is all we would be required to enter. We would never have to worry about using credited as because once one link was created between Name A and Name B, it would never be an issue again. Until of course you have 4 Name A's which would complicate matters. But this is no different than what we have right now. When pulling up an actor's name that is the same as another's, both actor's movies are pulled up unless they are seperated via a birthyear. The same would be expected of the new system. Some means of seperated like names appart. BY being a somewhat flawed way, but it's a start. I think you suggested first film? That might be a good way to seperate them. Anyway, I hope Ken is reading this and after he's done with the iPhone ap he will put some serious consideration into a Cast/Crew reconstruction.  | | | | "The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire | | | | Last edited: by Vittra |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Vittra: There is something that you don't understand. Yes, I can and do prevent all kinds of changes to my database. But the what you are missing is that all of us will have to cope with voting as any ping-pong battle rages, and then we have to deal in one form or another with any update generated, either to accept it or throw it out. Being a veteran of the old ping-pong wars and have to deal with just repetitive updates every week or so (we didn't have voting back then), that gets old and annoying REAL fast, and as my collection grew in size they got more so and i can only imagine what it was like for people with really BIG collections, like my friend srethims, it must have driven them over the edge. So such battles are to be avoided at all costs...trust me on this. People used to ping-pong SRP values for ONE penny regularly, this is no different just because it involves a name. Ping pong wars are BAD. Skip  | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: September 29, 2008 | | Posts: 384 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Vittra:
There is something that you don't understand. Yes, I can and do prevent all kinds of changes to my database. But the what you are missing is that all of us will have to cope with voting as any ping-pong battle rages, and then we have to deal in one form or another with any update generated, either to accept it or throw it out. Being a veteran of the old ping-pong wars and have to deal with just repetitive updates every week or so (we didn't have voting back then), that gets old and annoying REAL fast, and as my collection grew in size they got more so and i can only imagine what it was like for people with really BIG collections, like my friend srethims, it must have driven them over the edge. So such battles are to be avoided at all costs...trust me on this. People used to ping-pong SRP values for ONE penny regularly, this is no different just because it involves a name. Ping pong wars are BAD.
Skip It's not that I don't understand it. It's that I don't think it will be as much of an issue as you assume it will be. If a particular name becomes an area of debate and ping ponging begins, it would only take Invelos to lock it down and pick one of the two options. At that point, it wouldn't matter which we "want" in the database, it would be chosen. If we didn't like it, the local option would be there. I also stated that as a basic start the database could auto choose the most commonly credited name for any given actor/actress. This is the exact system we have now, but with the allowance that users can determine that the by-the-numbers CLT results are flawed. This would be no different than what we do now, the only difference is that we wouldn't be doing the same link 2000 times over for each and every title that alias, misspelling, backwards order, etc, is present. Just to be clear, I agree 100% that ping ponging is a very bad thing and should be avoided. I just believe that a system can be developed to minimize said ping ponging, and be an overall improvement for the database and it's userbase. | | | | "The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire | | | | Last edited: by Vittra |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | Skip:
I understand your points and agree that ping-pong wars are a bad thing. However, for the real names (or cultural names, however you wish to describe those fields), the philosphy would be the same as the HARD DATA, namely that each submission must be substantiated with hard evidence, such as an actor's official website and such. There will be debates, yes, but I think not more severe than the debates we currently have for hard data.
What will be needed for this to work, though, is an adapted set of rules to include:
- which standards are used to romanize names & titles from foreign languages (such as Japanese, Chinese, etc)
- which outside sources are valid to propose a real/cultural name
I think with that, we'd already go a long way in preventing endless discussions.
Also, for users such as you that prefer to see the hard data, all you'll need to do is keep that option selected and you'll see only that. Users like me who prefer the cultural name can change that option to only display the cultural names.
Everybody wins and everybody's happy. | | | Blu-ray collection
DVD collection
My Games
My Trophies |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Real ping-pong wars haven't happened since the introduction of the voting system. IMHO, it's a complete non-issue. |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | I would strongly support going the direction xradman, Taro, Vittra and midnitoil are suggesting, as it provides an elegant way to combine the creation of proper name linking with preserving the "as credited" hard data. The only issues to resolve as far as I know are same name cast/crew members and sorting by family name. |
| | Registered: May 8, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,945 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
Xradman: thank you for explaining the naming conventions in China and Korea and again, sorry for having misinterpreted before. Thanks to you, I have at least a basic understanding of Chinese and Korean names.
I see that there is quite a lot of support for a system with a linked cast and crew database. I would also be in favor of such a system and the way Vittra described seems very interesting to me. Basically, if I understood correctly, we could go about it like this:
For each cast or crew member, we would have:
- the credited as name
- the offiicial name (documented of course)
- if available, an alias (like The Rock or LL Cool J)
1. data is still submitted as it appears on the cover and in the credits, like we do now
2. later, submitters can link the correct official name to the cast and crew (which can very well happen to be the same as the credited as name), to which automatically the alias is linked, if available
3. if an official name doesn't exist yet, it can be submitted immediately linked to the corresponding credited as name, provided this is documented.
That way, we already have all the data in the online database.
Users then choose an option locally to display either the credited as name, the official name or the alias (if available) in their local database.
The advantage of the system would be:
- it caters to users like Skip, since nothing changes for them provided they choose the setting to display the credited as name
- it also caters to users like me who value cross linking, as we can set the option to only display the official name
- the work that has been done so far isn't lost, as the credited as name is still the basis for the submission. The offical name and alias are additional data linked to the already existing database.
- all this would require is adding one feature to DVD Profiler and creating the linked tables in the online database
What do you all think of this solution, suggested by Vittra? I personally can see this work and it would cater IMHO to both user groups (the "submit as appears on screen" as well as the "we want to cross link" crowd) I think this would be a VERY nice solution, would be awesome if this is doable by KEN greetings Donnie | | | | www.tvmaze.com |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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