Quoting Unicus69:

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Quoting T!M:

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Except that pesky little thing that it's what the rules tell us to do. Let me quote the rules again: "List names exactly as they are in the credits." Who are you to decide on your own that this doesn't apply to "a single capitalized or lowercase letter within the name"? In other words: who are you to decide the extent of the word "exactly" in that particular rule?

Except there is that pesky exception in the rules..."Exception: If the credit information is entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead."

As I just quoted, yes. The "standard capitalization rules" that turn "FRANCOIS" into "Francois" and "DEVITO" into "Devito", even when we happen to know that it really should be "François" and "DeVito".

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Standard capitalization rules dictate that you capitalize a persons name the way he or she wants it capitalized.  In every instance, that I can find, it is capitalized as 'DeVito'.  Who are you to decide, on your own, that this is incorrect?

Again: we don't invent data that isn't on the screen. You're using outside sources to determine what you enter. That might work for this one name, because we all know it, but it doesn't work accross the board. And again, the "FRANCOIS" example is helpful: you say "on every instance, that I can find, it is capitalized as 'DeVito'". Well, I can say the exact same thing for "François" (with the accent), but even with that knowledge, Ken told us to enter "FRANCOIS" as "Francois". How is these two situations any different? Either we invent things that aren't on the screen, or we don't.

Quoting hal9g:

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And, as I have stated before, if you continue to put "Danny Devito" in the "Credited As" field, you run the risk of the CLT eventually showing more instance s of "Devito" than "DeVito" and you will then have to change ALL of the profiles to a new "Common Name".

Here's the theoretical answer: Indeed! And quite rightly so, of course. If the guy is mostly credited as "Danny Devito" than that's his common name. That's what "use the most-credited form" means. I don't understand why you're so afraid of that: that exact principle is happening every single day. As you well know, we don't go by what you, me or the next guy feels that someone's "real" or "correct" name is - we use the most-credited. If that were to be "Devito", then so be it. But rest assured: it's not going to happen for this particular actor, though. But again: if our François, of which I can fully document that that is his correct and real name, is credited more often without the accent, then we ditch that "correct" and "real" name, and go with "Francois" as his common name instead. That's how the system works. There's no reason why things would be any different for Mr. DeVito.

I'll supply a more practical answer, too, if you're interested: didn't you just see Ken eliminate this concern of yours with regards to suffixes? So it's not exactly impossible to solve, is it?

Quoting hal9g:

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Like I said, a complete waste of time!

There you go again: you don't see a problem, so apparently there IS no problem. But again: EnryWiki just showed you the problem: different users are handling this in different ways, and will vote against users doing it using one of the other methods - I know I do. To make sure we can all submit changes to profiles, it's important that we're all consistent on these very basic issues: we should handle them all alike, instead of encountering a different handling of such credits in every other profile. You may find that a "complete waste of time", while it seems of the utmost importance to me. And with that I'm not just referring to my method - even though it's the only one that follows the rules - but to the fact that we NEED to get everyone on the same page. Per EnryWiki's example (and countless arguments like this one), we're clearly not.

Getting these three different methods of handling back to one universal method, doesn't seem like a "waste of time" to me.

Quoting T!M:

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As I just quoted, yes. The "standard capitalization rules" that turn "FRANCOIS" into "Francois" and "DEVITO" into "Devito", even when we happen to know that it really should be "François" and "DeVito".

Um, there is no "standard capitalization rule" that turns FRANCOUS into Francous.  That was a directive from Ken.  To claim otherwise is to twist the facts.

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Again: we don't invent data that isn't on the screen. You're using outside sources to determine what you enter. That might work for this one name, because we all know it, but it doesn't work accross the board. And again, the "FRANCOIS" example is helpful: you say "on every instance, that I can find, it is capitalized as 'DeVito'". Well, I can say the exact same thing for "François" (with the accent), but even with that knowledge, Ken told us to enter "FRANCOIS" as "Francois". How is these two situations any different? Either we invent things that aren't on the screen, or we don't.

Again, you are twisting the facts to support your position.  Converting 'FRANCOIS' into 'Francois' is a straight 1 to 1 conversion that has NOTHING to do with standard capitalization.  Ken directed us to use this method because the letter 'Ç' exists.  Converting 'C' into 'ç' is inventing data.

Beyond that, you logic simply amazes me.  If we don't 'invent data that isn't on screen', why do we enter 'DANNY DEVITO' as anything other than 'DANNY DEVITO'?  Maybe because converting all caps into standard capitalization ISN'T inventing data? 

The rules tell us to enter names, that are in all caps, using standard capitalization rules.  As I pointed out, the last time this came up, standard capitalization rules are as follows (from englishplus.com):

A proper noun is a noun which names a specific person, place, or thing.  That includes the following categories of names: Each part of a person's name: James A. Garfield      Chester Alan Arthur

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Some parts of last names may not be capitalized.

Sometimes the part of the last name following Mac (but never Mc or M') may not be capitalized. For example, Prime Minister J. R. MacDonald, but author George Macdonald. There is no rule, just learn the name.

Sometimes the part of the last name following the particles de, du, d', den, der, des, la, le, l', ten, ter, van, or von (and similar particles) may or may not be capitalized. The particles themselves may or may not be capitalized. Check to see how the person prefers it.

As I said then...and will repeat here...proper capitalization of names is to capitalize the first letter of each part and, for the rest...learn the name and see how the person prefers it.

Quoting skipnet50:

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Hal:

So what, we are after MOST COMMONLY credited name as ken has stated numerous times. What you or someone else thinks is his "real" name is something for your local not the Online.

Skip

You are correct...to a point.  While we are after the most commonly credited form of the name we are also after, when the name is in all caps, the properly capitalized form of the name.  Converting 'DANNY DEVITO' into 'Danny Devito' does not follow standard capitalization rules so violates the rules.

If he were credited, more often than not, as 'Danny Devito' then I would not have a problem.  The problem is that he isn't.  For all credits of 'DANNY DEVITO', people like T!M, are creating an artificial name based on personal preference.  As I said before, I am just happy Ken set the prgram up in such a way that this garbage doesn't make it into my local.

Quoting Unicus69:

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Converting 'DANNY DEVITO' into 'Danny Devito' does not follow standard capitalization rules so violates the rules.

No! Converting 'DANNY DEVITO' into 'Danny DeVito' does not follow standard capitalization rules so violates the rules.

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As I said before, I am just happy Ken set the prgram up in such a way that this garbage doesn't make it into my local.

Ah, the perfect way to end every debate... That leaves me with a heartfelt: "Likewise!"

It's just sad that encountering a different method of handling this in every other profile doesn't exactly makes contributing easier - and that goes for either side. We should really be able to get on the same page on these very basic issues. I understand that I'm an easy target because I happen to be the one who cares enough to keep replying, but you'll have noted, both in this thread and in the database, that I'm decidedly not the only one that feels this way. Which isn't surprisingly, since I'm only following the rules. Anyway: feel free to try and discredit me all you want - I couldn't care less. I'm only interested in accurate data. That's all.

Quoting T!M:

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No! Converting 'DANNY DEVITO' into 'Danny DeVito' does not follow standard capitalization rules so violates the rules.

I have given you a reference to support my claim that it does...or did you choose to ignore that?  Please be so kind as to provide your reference that says it doesn't.

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As I said before, I am just happy Ken set the prgram up in such a way that this garbage doesn't make it into my local.

Ah, the perfect way to end every debate... That leaves me with a heartfelt: "Likewise!"

One small problem there...you are the one introducing the garbage into the database. 

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It's just sad that encountering a different method of handling this in every other profile doesn't exactly makes contributing easier - and that goes for either side. We should really be able to get on the same page on these very basic issues. I understand that I'm an easy target because I happen to be the one who cares enough to keep replying, but you'll have noted, both in this thread and in the database, that I'm decidedly not the only one that feels this way. Which isn't surprisingly, since I'm only following the rules. Anyway: feel free to try and discredit me all you want - I couldn't care less. I'm only interested in accurate data. That's all.

You are not following the rules, you are following your own personal preference.  As I said, I have given you a reference to 'standard capitalization rules for names'.  It isn't something I made up, it is something I found online.  If you choose to ignore it, that is fine, but it speaks volumes as to your motives here.

Can I scream now?

Skip

Quoting Unicus69:

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You are not following the rules, you are following your own personal preference.  As I said, I have given you a reference to 'standard capitalization rules for names'.  It isn't something I made up, it is something I found online.  If you choose to ignore it, that is fine, but it speaks volumes as to your motives here.

When you consider how T!M spells his own name, it becomes easy to see why he might be confused about how Danny DeVito's name would properly be spelled.

Seriously, though, it is interesting how T!M persists in ignoring the standard capitalization rules you have provided from englishplus.com and instead replaces those rules with his own personal preference without providing any proof other than "because I say it is so."  No wonder he thinks he's winning the argument.  He only plays by his own made-up rules.