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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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 Fixing an obvious error in the end credits (Locked) |
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| Author |
Message |
| Registered: March 30, 2007 |  Posts: 6 |
| | Posted: | | | | Sorry to intrude this discussion but it's simply too weird. I would never have guessed there could be different positions about this.
Let's start with the original credits. I hope we all see why it is like it is. No filmmaker would ever say to himself: "There is a rule: role name left, actor right. I have to follow this no matter what." If it reads stupid it gets switched - end of story. Life is too short to get a headache due to things like this.
Now we are here and want to fill a database based on the given credits.
Some people say: "We have a rule: fill out the fields in the order we see on screen. If we do this, the listing in our programm turns out like the credits on the screen. The fact that we fill our database with strange (to say the least) entries doesn't bother us. The output, like it is given at the moment, and our rule is the most important thing.
And than there are people like me (I hope): "A database should be an organized data structure so we can do all sorts of cool things now or later. It should not be a random collection of entries that are in the database the way they are just because the current output of the data makes it readable. This could change anytime and also in other sections of the program it makes no sence."
In the end the question is: Is the ultimate goal to represent the credits like they appear on screen? Then please create a big weaved screenshot of it and that's it. If we want to create a usable database than please fill out the fields so it makes sence.
Thanks for your time. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | You know, if you gave this thing to a 5th grader and told them to put all the names here and all the roles there, we'd have less trouble. Somehow a group of adults can't seem to get this figured out.  |
| | Registered: May 9, 2007 |  Posts: 1,536 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote:
You know, if you gave this thing to a 5th grader and told them to put all the names here and all the roles there, we'd have less trouble. Somehow a group of adults can't seem to get this figured out. Thanks for a plausible definition of "common sense". I guess 5th graders aren't spoiled by education, not too much anyway.  | | | | Hans |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 2,366 |
| | Posted: | | | | I still don't understand why a credit like J.D. Donaruma is entered as J./D./Donaruma [J.D. Donaruma] by some. What's the use of showing the lack of a space between initials, while we shouldn't have to replicate reversed columns?  Both are formatting issues in my opinion and it's also "destructive behaviour" CLT wise, because it separates credits for the same person.  | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands | | | | Last edited: by Daddy DVD |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 2,692 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote:
You know, if you gave this thing to a 5th grader and told them to put all the names here and all the roles there, we'd have less trouble. Somehow a group of adults can't seem to get this figured out. Actually I think this has been sorted out by a group of adults since it's so straight forward and just needs common sense. It's only when you say that common sense must be ignored that it becomes difficult. I always knew it was a mistake for us to have come down from the trees. [monkey sounds on]Ooo OOooo Aaaaa Aaaaa[/monkey sounds off] | | | | Paul |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,692 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote:
Surely we'd divine that from some impossibly narrow interpretation of the rules. I feel confident it is buried in there somewhere.  surely we should ask Ken how we should be using the colour picker? Does it say anywhere in the rules about using the pointed end on the colour? I rest my case. (So we can be ready just in case we ever need to use colours). | | | | Paul |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,692 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting micnic: Quote:
Sorry to intrude this discussion but it's simply too weird. I would never have guessed there could be different positions about this.
Let's start with the original credits. I hope we all see why it is like it is. No filmmaker would ever say to himself: "There is a rule: role name left, actor right. I have to follow this no matter what." If it reads stupid it gets switched - end of story. Life is too short to get a headache due to things like this.
You have only just started going to the forums haven't you?  | | | | Paul |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Daddy DVD: Quote:
I still don't understand why a credit like J.J. Doe is entered as J./J./Doe [J.J. Doe] by some. What's the use of showing the lack of a space between initials, while we shouldn't have to replicate reversed columns? Both are formatting issues in my opinion and it's also "destructive behaviour" CLT wise, because it separates credits for the same person.
Just enter "J.D. Donaruma" and "J. D. Donaruma" in the CLT to see what I mean. The problem is indeed very similar - I have to admit it's nothing more than a formatting issue as well - but you've given the answer yourself earlier in this thread, from before the moment that you "saw the light"...  Quoting Daddy DVD: Quote:
To show the cast list exactly as credited If you really want to have the cast list reflect exactly what you're seeing on-screen, than you're going to have to reflect the difference between "J.D. Donaruma" and "J. D. Donaruma" as well. So there lies the problem. Come to think of it: if these were role names, you'd enter them exactly as they appeared, wouldn't you? Well, that's the reason why people do this for the actor names as well - it's all because we're taking "as credited" extremely literally. I know I have submitted the kind of entries you're referring to here (note that I was "taught" to do so by Skip), but I understand why you're bringing this up here, and I have no problem admitting that you are completely right: it's just a formatting issue, and it should be dealt with using standards set by Invelos, not by using the "credited as" feature. Note that I have asked, pleaded and even downright begged for such standards in the forums time and time again. But since I don't know what kind of standard Invelos is going to set, it seems valuable to track exactly how people are credited when I'm auditing profiles - that way, as soon as there is some kind of rule or standard for this, I can immediately fix a large number of profiles without having to check them all again. Trust me: ast this point, I'd like nothing better than to eliminate such nonsense - it's the exact same thing as the difference between "Robert Downey Jr." and "Robert Downey, Jr." - but it won't be solved until Ken addresses these issues. It's exactly these very basic issues that make us the laughing stock of all cast & crew databases out there: there's not a single one that has separate, non-linking entries for the same people like this, and we really need to have this addressed as soon as possible. Only then can we really start building towards a usable and accurate database. Just a few simple comments like: "Always enter suffixed names with/without the comma" (take your pick, I don't even care), or "split first names that consist of two initials over the first and middle name fields" (or put them all in the first name field: again, I don't even care), and we're done. It's similar to the whole "Himself" credits thing - as long as Invelos doesn't confirm that he's wrong, Skip will remain convinced that he knows best, and he'll continue to keep ruining the data for all of us. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 2,366 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
(note that I was "taught" to do so by Skip)
...Skip will remain convinced that he knows best, and he'll continue to keep ruining the data for all of us.  Sounds you do not like the things he does, but yet you still "listen" to him...  | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands | | | | Last edited: by Daddy DVD |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Daddy DVD: Quote:
Sounds you do not like the things he does, but yet you still listen to him...
I did, once, but I've seen the error of my ways now...  For those interested: that all dates back to this old discussion. You'll see that I fought for maintaining standards with regards to suffixes and initials from day one. But alas, the usual suspects insisted that we could not have any standards at all, and that on both issues, the most-credited form should always prevail. That, to this day, leaves us with multiple and non-linking entries for the likes of Robert Downey Jr. and Robert Downey, Jr. or J.D. Donaruma and J. D. Donaruma - either variant could be correct depending on how often they're used... It's sad to see that the situation hasn't improved in seven months, while Ken could end the whole thing in three minutes - and three lines, for that matter - I really don't understand why these very basic problems aren't addressed. I don't ever whine about when the new beta will be released, I have never asked for CD Profiler - not even once - but I do want to hear from Invelos about these very basic issues. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 2,366 |
| | Posted: | | | | I still remember Quoting Ken: Quote:
DVD Profiler must walk a fine line between enough accuracy to keep one side of the aisle happy while maintaining ease of use and entry to keep the other, generally somewhat silent and large majority happy. My development experience is not trivial, and I've been forced to design systems where one person's concept of accuracy has driven the project into the ground, completely unusable to the end users. I don't plan to make that mistake here. and I wonder how some users still are able to influence the database with their preferences.  | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting micnic: Quote:
And than there are people like me (I hope): "A database should be an organized data structure so we can do all sorts of cool things now or later. It should not be a random collection of entries that are in the database the way they are just because the current output of the data makes it readable. This could change anytime and also in other sections of the program it makes no sence."
In the end the question is: Is the ultimate goal to represent the credits like they appear on screen? Then please create a big weaved screenshot of it and that's it. If we want to create a usable database than please fill out the fields so it makes sence.
I totally agree with that  ... and have tried to promote this position for the past year : I'm now the ugly black sheep of the forum... | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting micnic: Quote:
Sorry to intrude this discussion but it's simply too weird. I would never have guessed there could be different positions about this.
Let's start with the original credits. I hope we all see why it is like it is. No filmmaker would ever say to himself: "There is a rule: role name left, actor right. I have to follow this no matter what." If it reads stupid it gets switched - end of story. Life is too short to get a headache due to things like this.
Now we are here and want to fill a database based on the given credits.
Some people say: "We have a rule: fill out the fields in the order we see on screen. If we do this, the listing in our programm turns out like the credits on the screen. The fact that we fill our database with strange (to say the least) entries doesn't bother us. The output, like it is given at the moment, and our rule is the most important thing.
And than there are people like me (I hope): "A database should be an organized data structure so we can do all sorts of cool things now or later. It should not be a random collection of entries that are in the database the way they are just because the current output of the data makes it readable. This could change anytime and also in other sections of the program it makes no sence."
In the end the question is: Is the ultimate goal to represent the credits like they appear on screen? Then please create a big weaved screenshot of it and that's it. If we want to create a usable database than please fill out the fields so it makes sence.
Thanks for your time. So glad to see that you have the ability to divine WHY filmmakers do things the way they do. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | So sad to see that you don't seem to have a clue about maintaining an accurate cast and crew database. Seriously: if you can't grasp that actor names go in the "name" field and role names go into the "role name" field, then I fear all hope is lost. Unlike what you may think, this is not a personal vendetta against you, Skip: I just care about accurate cast and crew data, and it pains me to see how willing you are sacrifice that just to deal with a bit of formatting. As someone pointed out earlier: a five-year-old could figure this out. I know how difficult it is for you to admit that you made a mistake, but you really should just try it for once. Admit it, get over it, and then forget all about it. And hey - added bonus! - you get to have accurate cast and crew data as well. There really aren't any drawbacks... | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 30, 2007 | | Posts: 6 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
So glad to see that you have the ability to divine WHY filmmakers do things the way they do.
Skip Actually, we don't need to. I would guess there are three versions to be found in movies: left "himself", right "himself" and the same name twice. I don't see any problem with all three versions so no need to divine a reason. Anyway, I'm off now since I promised not to intrude the discusion and, in the end, don't care enough.  |
| | Registered: March 10, 2007 | | Posts: 4,282 |
| | Posted: | | | | My thought on this is that if the cast listing is explicit, as in "Himself as Bob Smith", or "Bob Smith played by Himself", then the Credited As field should be used to preserve intent. However, if the only indication of Name/Role is left/right, I would lean towards allowing the credit to be entered as name: "Bob Smith", role: "Himself"
EDIT: And yes, use only the pointy end of the arrow to select colors. | | | | Invelos Software, Inc. Representative | | | | Last edited: by Ken Cole |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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