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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Credits Help |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | This is not addressed to anyone in particular. In fact, many of the recent posts were written over the past 12 hours or so while I've considered posting. Also, this post is directed at myself as well. I have been in the midst of many such forum squabbles as this. In trying to come to terms with how to effect a positive contribution to DVD Profiler for myself, I am evolving to the following: When a consensus is achieved, as is apparent in this case, even though there is dissent, here is my recommendation: Stop responding to the dissent - You won't change their opinion. Be confident that Invelos rarely adopts extreme views; therefore, there's not much need to concern oneself with outlier opinions.No need to point out personal attacks - They're already evident, as are lies and self-aggrandizement. Use the red arrows. In some ways, the red arrows are a sugar pill, but it's really all we have. Understand that Invelos' nature has created an authority vacuum that attracts the negative behavior you are trying to protest. Invelos won't take a side, as evidenced by this post. You will just be seen as part of the "back and forth".Contribute the change per the consensus - If you get 'no' votes from a dissenter, ensure that your contribution notes address the issue that the dissenter objects to. Don't address the dissenter; address the issue. Invelos evaluators respond favorably to (short) reasonable explanations, especially if you can link it to a forum consensus.Remember the end goal - The database is the end goal. Converting the dissenter in the forum or in their vote is not an achievable goal.Remember the purpose - This is a hobby. It's supposed to be enjoyable. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Again, noanswer. Just dismissing the challenge because you cannot provide parameters. That is an attack in and of itself, james. Answer the question IF you can, which you can;'t.I paraphrase you on the Additional Voices issue "I iknow an actor" when I see one. That is NOT a parameter, James. That is your guessing game. And guessing games are not acceptable. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Forum Moderator: Removed | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Forum Moderator |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Winston Smith: Quote:
Fine, Martian, you have no answer as i suspected. Like I said, you just refuse to accept the answer given. Not my problem, but it is the weekend so I refuse to play this game any longer...time enough for that when I get to work on Monday. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: August 23, 2008 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,656 |
| | Posted: | | | | | | | Reviewer, HorrorTalk.com
"I also refuse to document CLT results and I pay my bills to avoid going to court." - Sam, keeping it real, yo. |
| | Registered: September 3, 2007 | | Posts: 163 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Winston Smith: Quote:
Because you don't understand the Rules. How is it that you believe you understand something in which you had ZERO invilvement. Don't derail the thread. There is alegitimaye question that has been asked, answer it if YOU CAN. If you can't.... Does this mean you think only the few select people who were involved in creating the rules understand them? How does not being involved at that point cause someone to not be able to understand them now? | | |  |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting tiger_lil6: Quote:
Quoting Winston Smith:
Quote:
Because you don't understand the Rules. How is it that you believe you understand something in which you had ZERO invilvement. Don't derail the thread. There is alegitimaye question that has been asked, answer it if YOU CAN. If you can't....
Does this mean you think only the few select people who were involved in creating the rules understand them? How does not being involved at that point cause someone to not be able to understand them now? As sad as it make me say this tiger, that appears to be true. As is the norm, when I ask for answers from people, they do not provide them, but instead begin the usual shower demeaning comments and remarks designed merely to inflame rather than answering the question. This all leads me to believe two things, their understanding of the rule is completely incorrect and they have NO answers to what i ask. This case in point, Ferris Bueller use a standard set of credits as we define them, the attempt has been made to involve to totally separate sections of the rule in order to achieve a specific objective and the Non-Standard part of the Rules simply does not apply to Ferris Bueller.The film either has standard credits or it does not, it does not have both and this film very clearly DOES. I repeat the question fo one and all. What are the parameters that we can apply so that ALL users can determine and data enter Crew data which you believe is in reality Cast data, especially when there IS a STANDARD Cast List. The answer so far and will always be zero, because such parameters can be drawn up. Like i said one user in on another topic, simply said he could tell an actor when he see one...that is not parameter, that is a guess or the user has mystical capabilities which are not possessed by ALL users.Al I want is an answer if one can be provided. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
This is not addressed to anyone in particular. In fact, many of the recent posts were written over the past 12 hours or so while I've considered posting. Also, this post is directed at myself as well. I have been in the midst of many such forum squabbles as this. In trying to come to terms with how to effect a positive contribution to DVD Profiler for myself, I am evolving to the following:
When a consensus is achieved, as is apparent in this case, even though there is dissent, here is my recommendation:
Stop responding to the dissent - You won't change their opinion. Be confident that Invelos rarely adopts extreme views; therefore, there's not much need to concern oneself with outlier opinions.
No need to point out personal attacks - They're already evident, as are lies and self-aggrandizement. Use the red arrows. In some ways, the red arrows are a sugar pill, but it's really all we have. Understand that Invelos' nature has created an authority vacuum that attracts the negative behavior you are trying to protest. Invelos won't take a side, as evidenced by this post. You will just be seen as part of the "back and forth".
Contribute the change per the consensus - If you get 'no' votes from a dissenter, ensure that your contribution notes address the issue that the dissenter objects to. Don't address the dissenter; address the issue. Invelos evaluators respond favorably to (short) reasonable explanations, especially if you can link it to a forum consensus.
Remember the end goal - The database is the end goal. Converting the dissenter in the forum or in their vote is not an achievable goal.
Remember the purpose - This is a hobby. It's supposed to be enjoyable. I have run out of green arrows yet again but this post is deserving of one. So, I will send one your way tomorrow. I had decided to let my red arrows speak for me. And, when appropriate send a personal note to Ken and Gerri. But, your post succinctly puts my thoughts into words. Thank you. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Forum Moderator: Removed | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Forum Moderator |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 599 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Winston Smith: Quote:
Quoting DJ Doena:
Quote:
Skip: Serious advise: Cool down. Lower your blood pressure. Your spelling is getting more and more erratic which points to emotional stress. It's just a product, just a forum. No reason to get a heart attack from.
LOL, I have a sticking keyboard Oh well, that's the consequences of using the contribution guidelines as masturbation fodder.  |
| | Registered: September 11, 2010 | | Posts: 42 |
| | Posted: | | | | From what I've read here. I know I'm going to be in the minority here - I won't be too fussed if you ignore me - though that's not nice  We have a list of positively identified entities that were not listed in the "end credits." This was a conscious decision made by the film-maker. That weakens the argument to include them in the cast (you would have had a stronger argument if they'd been totally overlooked). From the screen shot provided by the OP - it looks to me that the "credits" belong to the The Geddes Agency (for casting extras). The film-maker knew about them and chose not to give them acting credits. Why would we chose to give them those acting credits? |
| | Registered: August 23, 2008 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,656 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting J68: Quote:
The film-maker knew about them and chose not to give them acting credits. Why would we chose to give them those acting credits? Would you apply the same thinking to uncredited actors? (Note, if you read that as snide, that's not my intention at all. I just think we credit uncredited actors that are in a film, I don't see any reason whatsoever not to credit these cats.) | | | Reviewer, HorrorTalk.com
"I also refuse to document CLT results and I pay my bills to avoid going to court." - Sam, keeping it real, yo. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Alien:
I understand you, but J68 sort of hit the nailon the head. While these people SEEM to be attached to an agency in this case. That is not parameter in the rules, and it is not a possible parameter that would apply in ALL cases. The parameter must be something that would apply in all cases, every time and further as I stated this film does use Standard credits, then some try to mix in another portion of the Rules which is completely not applicable..
If you want to do this, all I want to see is what the parameters are going to be so the next time we can handle. It's not case by case, it's not "I know it when I see it" and it's not some sort of mysticism. We need a hard and fast parameter that tells us what we are looking to make someone outside of standard Credits a Cast member. When Dan and I discussed this we could not come up with something workable which is why it was completely ignored, now if someone wants to have a crack at it, I will listen, criticize and look for potential holes, maybe someone will come up with something we missed. But so far no one has even tried, they have instead ignored the question and played 1984 trying to shut me up, in other words Situation Normal. I would love to see someone have crack it, but I am skeptical that parameters can be created that will work in every case.
Now we credit (uncredited) yes and they are so designated. These people are outside of the Standard Credits, following your line of logic, how should they be designated. They are not (uncredited) but neither are they credited under the definition of Standard credits which is the applicable portion of the Rules which apply. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: September 11, 2010 | | Posts: 42 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Alien Redrum: Quote:
Would you apply the same thinking to uncredited actors?
When you say "uncredited actors" I'm going to assume you're referring to actors that weren't mentioned in the credits. As I said above, the argument to include the "participants" would have been stronger if they'd been totally overlooked. But if you're referring to uncredited actors that were credited in the same way as the "participants" have been, then yes I would apply the same thinking. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting J68: Quote:
From what I've read here. I know I'm going to be in the minority here - I won't be too fussed if you ignore me - though that's not nice
We have a list of positively identified entities that were not listed in the "end credits." This was a conscious decision made by the film-maker. That weakens the argument to include them in the cast (you would have had a stronger argument if they'd been totally overlooked).
From the screen shot provided by the OP - it looks to me that the "credits" belong to the The Geddes Agency (for casting extras).
The film-maker knew about them and chose not to give them acting credits. Why would we chose to give them those acting credits? But they were given acting credits, just in a different spot. My problem with this stance, and it is the same problem I have with Skip's stance, is that the rules define two types of credits... credits where all credited actors involved are listed at the end of the film*credits where all credited actors involved are NOT listed at the end of the filmThere is no question that these peopple were credited. Since they were, we are allowed to enter them. * you will note that the rule does not say "listed together at the end of the film" so, technically, any actor listed after the film ends, and before the credits end, is part of the 'end credits' as defined in the rules...but we will leave that fight for another day. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: August 23, 2008 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,656 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting J68: Quote:
Quoting Alien Redrum:
Quote:
Would you apply the same thinking to uncredited actors?
When you say "uncredited actors" I'm going to assume you're referring to actors that weren't mentioned in the credits. As I said above, the argument to include the "participants" would have been stronger if they'd been totally overlooked. That's what I'm referring to, actors not mentioned in the credits. I think that's my point, if your argument is (if I'm reading it correctly), if the filmmaker chose not to credit them at all, why should we, I don't agree with that. If an actor is in a movie, I think we should notate them whether or not they are in the cast (backed by proof, of course). Just because they are mentioned somewhere outside the 'norm' (and I use that term extremely loosely) doesn't mean they shouldn't be acknowledged at all (in the DVDP database), because they are, in fact, in the movie. And, in this instance, they are even credited! So what if they aren't credited in section A of the credits. The very bottom line is they have a credit in this film. It should be irrelevant where that credit is, the very fact that they are in the credits at all should place them in the database. It truly boggles my mind that there is an argument about submitting a profile update on whether or not to credit someone when they are actually is credited on a DVD. The rest is just semantics. (Again, if the tone seems negative or attacking, it's not intended.) Quote:
But if you're referring to uncredited actors that were credited in the same way as the "participants" have been, then yes I would apply the same thinking. I don't think you (general you, not you in particular) can have it both ways. They are either in the movie or not, so they should be credited or not. It shouldn't make a difference if they were credited last, first, in the middle, upside down or sideways. It all should boil down to whether or not they were in the film. IMO, the fact that they were acknowledged by the filmmakers as being in the film means there should be no argument on whether or not to plug them into the DVDP database. | | | Reviewer, HorrorTalk.com
"I also refuse to document CLT results and I pay my bills to avoid going to court." - Sam, keeping it real, yo. | | | | Last edited: by Alien Redrum |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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