Quoting Gerri Cole:

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Quoting Taro:

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If you use the credited as feature, you could link up all these names, correct?
Technically speaking I suppose that would indeed work. Submitting them online as such (credited as feature) would also be in accordance to the rules or is it a solution valid only for the local database?

Although this is a technical solution, I still don't understand why for western actors we put the last name in the last field, regardless of the order in which their first and last name is credited, yet for Japanese actors we aren't allowed to do so. This is even more puzzling to me as, unlike Chinese and Korean names, Japanese names follow the exact same structure as western names, with the exception that they don't use middle names. If anything, it should make it even easier to input the family name in the last field, yet we're only allowed to do so for western names. Is there a particular reason for that?

You can use credited as for online as well as local.

As for your other question, to be honest, I am not sure that I follow. Can you give me an example? From my simple perspective, I am having trouble seeing what the issue is.

I'm sorry, I'll try to explain in a more understandable way. Apparently, Ken said that it's OK to reverse the order of a name when inputting into the database, if it is in order to put the last name in the last name field and the first name in the first name field.

However, he said this is only valid for Western names, not for Asian names (including Japanese names). I'm afraid I don't know much about Korean and Chinese names, but for Japanese names, I know these are made up the same way as Western names, namely they one family name and one first name.

So my question is, why only apply this rule to western names and not to Japanese names, even though both have the same basic structure (with the exception that Japanese names don't have middle names)?


xradman:
Sorry, I know very little about Korean and Chinese names and if I made a mistake by saying they consist of more than 2 words, then I apologize. What I mean to say is that for Japanese names, the structure is exactly the same as Western names (without middle names) : two words: one for the first name and one for the last names. As such, I didn't understand why the above rule only applied to Western names. When I see Chinese names like Chow Yun Fat, it is composed of three words (at least, when transcribed to roman letters). As such I can understand it's harder to  parse them, especially for users like me who lack the necessary cultural info to parse them. However, Japanese names are made up of two words always, so as long as you can identify which is the family name, you could be able to parse them exactly the same way as western names are parsed.


Everyone, thanks for the constructive suggestions. I think I'll use the 'credited as' feature to solve the problem for the time being, hoping that this will not be against the rules ...

Quoting Gerri Cole:

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Quoting Taro:

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So my question is, why only apply this rule to western names and not to Japanese names, even though both have the same basic structure (with the exception that Japanese names don't have middle names)?

If Japanese names are represented just like Western names, then I think the term "Asian names" is a generalization and doesn't apply to Japanese names.

If the credits are like this:

John Smith
John would be in the first name field.
Smith would be in the last name field.

If I understand you, then if this were a Japanese name in the credits, it would look like this:
Japanese_first_name Japanese_last_Name
Then Japanese_first_name would be in the first name field.
And Japanese_last_name would be in the last name field.

I have a feeling that it isn't this simple. Hoping someone can take my example and show me how it normally is displayed. Because I think that is what I don't understand.

Yes! You're close to the issue now. I just need to add the following:

When Japanese write their name in a Japanese context (among Japanese, in Japanese characters), they always write the family name first (I won't go into the details why they do this, but there is a reason for that and that's how they do it, withing their culture)

However, when in a Western or international context, Japanese adapt their writing style: they use a romanization for their name and put the first name first, then the family name, to comply with general practices in the West.

Now comes the problem: some studios or distributors want to be 'Japlish' and romanize the names but keep the original Japanese order of family name first, followed by first name. A correct translation to English should reverse the order, in compliance with what Japanese themselves do in a (for them) foreign context.

That's why Japanese credits, especially in Western releases of Japanese movies are very inconsistent and you'll find First_name_Last_name as well as Last_name_First_name entries.


When I input movies based on the original Japanese credits, I always put the first name in the first name field and the last name in the last name field, as this is the correct way to 'translate' Japanese cast and crew culturally.


The problem is that western released discs aren't consistent and even depending on the distributor, the order can be reversed for the exact same movie, depending on whether or not they keep the Japanese order.

So sure, we can all stick to just copy-pasting the credits like we do now, but eventually we'll end up with virtually every Japanese actor twice in the database: once with the Japanese order and once with the Western order.

To be honest, with the current version of DVD Profiler and the current set of rules, I really don't know how to deal with this, aside from a carbon copy-paste of the credits (which creates a lot of inconsistencies in the database)

I would be happy if Invelos could offer a solution for this, either through adapted rules or additional features in the software or both and if cultural input is required for Japanese cast & crew, I'd be happy to lend a hand and give explanations to the best of my ability.

About 70% of my collection is anime so this issue also greatly effects me as well. And I see what Taro is talking about all the time in Western distributed titles. Sometimes the names will be ordered one way, sometimes the other.  Pleasing both crowds can be done at this point by using the credited as feature in the program now. It's likely that the most common name is always going to be the western translation of the name so your input would be: First_name Last_name [Last_name First_name] to create correct linking for that title. In the rare cases that the opposite was the common name, I believe if you explained the problem in your notes when contributing that CLT was incorrect, then it would be accepted. The current system, I believe can please both crowds (hard data vs. useful data).

On that note though. I still believe our current system is in need of a major overhawl due to the shere amount of work it takes to get your whole database to link correctly. Especially when considering those with 1000+ asian or even animation (anime) titles.  I mention animation because voice actors use many aliases in the US to avoid union based problems and taxes.

Since the above would only fix that one title, you then have to go through ever other title and choose that same common name. Doing the same work multiple times. I've just started trying to get my own database to have correct linking and there are very prominent voice actors that use their aliases quite often. I have to go through a good 100-200 titles just to switch that one name and I've run into titles that have 75% of their cast using aliases. So you can imagine how much work this involves.

My Solution:

A seperate Cast/Crew database. Much like our current DVD database you can make contributions to said Cast/Crew database that would associate 2 names together. Documentation would be required, but only once. Since once it's there, every title with those two different names would be linked to the same actor/crew member. We could even have a voting system in place just like our current system.

So everyone would only have to worry about entering As Credited data into their local database and contribute this strictly As Credited data. If you notice that a name wasn't linking properly. Submit said link to the Cast/Crew database with your proof that said As Credited name is indeed supposed to link to said actor/crew member. And once approved and downloaded. Link created (and for all users across all titles).

As for choosing the display name (common name) as many people argue about. This I believe should be as Danae and Skip have mentioned, thier real name. Unless they use a stage name like John Wayne. These names could also be submitted just like links are made in the Cast/Crew database. Until said contributions are made, the system could auto select the most credited form at any given time. Once a "Real Name" is submitted then this would be locked until say they change their name like Rebecca Romain Stamos (sp?) did when she got married/devorced (I don't know the details, I just know the name she currently goes by is different than her current common name).

This would also fix "The Rock" as his real name is Dwayne Johnson. Even though we are forced to enter him in as "The Rock [Dwayne Johnson]" at this point, the new system would allow a contribution to change this.

Lastly, since I'm sure some people would be unhappy with "Real Name" being the display name, there would be a local option that you could enter in whatever you wanted as the display name. If you want Dwayne Johnson to display as "The Rock" then you could do so easily.

By no means do I know anything about database design though, so there could be holes in this idea or straight complications from a designing standpoint, but I see this as a direction we should be working towards to please both crowds.

Edit: I realize this doesn't include "what if there are several people with the same name" which we would have to figure out a way to identify each unique actor/crew member. The Birth Year seems to be very difficult (and inconsistant). I don't have an idea here other then we need to figure out something to split same name actors/crew without the use of BY.

I personally think that the suggestion of Vittra sounds very reasonable, but I also don't know how much work it would be to implement this.

cheers
Donnie

It is correct that Japanese names are a different story from Korean and Chinese ones.  Chinese and Korean credits usually follow their naming conventions: they go by SURNAME/GIVEN NAME and are overwhelmingly credited that way.  The Japanese also go SURNAME/GIVEN NAME, but are often credited by Western standards, GIVEN NAME/SURNAME.  Actors and filmmakers are usually known outside of Japan under these western versions: Akira Kurosawa, Seijun Suzuki, Toshiro Mifune, Takashi Miike, Takeshi Kitano, Tadanobu Asano, Hiroshi Abe, etc.

I personally use the western standard of Japanese names because they are usually credited that way in the films and that is how I know the cast and crew (unlike the Chinese and Korean names, which stick with the Asian order both on-and-off the screen).

As some of you with large Hong Kong collections might be aware, I have been working on finally fixing these titles, starting backwards from the letter Z (I've taken a slight break, but I will be finishing A-E soon).  I've submitted a few hundred titles (with plans to do the Hong Kong Legends and Shaw Brothers titles later, as well as Korean films) and haven't had one rejected.  In order to fix these titles, I set up my own consistent set of rules:

- Stick with the "as credited" format (SURNAME/GIVEN NAME) for all names
- Hong Kong cast and crew is overwhelmingly credited (at least 95%) without a dash in the Given Name (Chow Yun Fat, not Chow Yun-Fat), so I used this consistently, using the "Credited As" tool for the few names that don't apply
- In order to determine common names, I couldn't rely solely on the CLT, as it is riddled with IMDB (quickly proven after using the actual credits), so I needed an accurate 3rd party database to assist.  HKMDB is the most accurate DB out there regarding HK films, with a full list of the various Aliases or Spellings used in the credits.  It helps with accurately linking an actor who might sometimes use his English name and other times his Chinese name, and even both.  Eventually, when I am finished, I will go back and review the common names with the correct credits and see if the true credits reflect something different.
- Any actors listed in the existing profile, but not credited in English, were marked as "uncredited", since I couldn't confirm through the credits their presence.  I double-checked with HKMDB to verify they were in the movie, as well as adding uncredited that I had visually verified before.
- Only the more recent Hong Kong films listed film roles in the credits, so I either left the names from the current profile or used HKMDB to determine the roles.
- I didn't submit those films that lacked any western credits (those credited entirely in Chinese), since everything was technically uncredited (unless you can read Chinese).  I just marked all of the names as uncredited in my local in the same manner that I did above.

The guidelines I used seem to work fine.  As I said, every contribution was accepted and the only No votes I received was from a single user who didn't want SURNAME/GIVEN NAME format for a few of the actors.  After PM'ing back and forth explaining what I was doing, the user changed to a Yes voter.

I have similar guidelines set up for my work on Korean titles.  Maybe we can work on something similar to fix Japanese titles.

Quoting Taro:

Quote:
xradman:
Sorry, I know very little about Korean and Chinese names and if I made a mistake by saying they consist of more than 2 words, then I apologize. What I mean to say is that for Japanese names, the structure is exactly the same as Western names (without middle names) : two words: one for the first name and one for the last names. As such, I didn't understand why the above rule only applied to Western names. When I see Chinese names like Chow Yun Fat, it is composed of three words (at least, when transcribed to roman letters). As such I can understand it's harder to  parse them, especially for users like me who lack the necessary cultural info to parse them. However, Japanese names are made up of two words always, so as long as you can identify which is the family name, you could be able to parse them exactly the same way as western names are parsed.

That's alright.  Saying Chow Yun Fat consists of 3 words is like saying Shi Dou Naka Mura consists of 4 words.  Chow is one name and Yun Fat (Yun-fat) is the other name.  You can't separate out Yun-fat any more than you can separate out Shidou.  There is no middle name in neither Korean or Chinese just like there is no middle name in Japanese.  Only middle names are western style name that some actors/actresses have given themselves (typically in Hong Kong).

I think the easiest solution for Ken to implement would be to assign a unique actor ID to each actor.

Chow Yun Fat = Actor 10023 for example

Then you can link this to any cast entry that he appears in as

Cast102Movie23453 = Actor 10023 where Cast102Movie23453 would be how he is credited in Movie 23453.

In your local database, you can individually choose what his common name is by selecting a different username such as User10023 = Actor 10023, but the displayed user name is Yun-fat Chow.

Further improvement can be made in the program so that when you add new cast and crew, you are first required to select the actor from a pre-approved database rather than entering whatever name you want.

So in conclusion, in this system

Actor 10023 = Chow Yun Fat (or whatever Invelos chooses as a community name)
Cast102Movie23453 = Chow Yun-fat (or however he is credited in the movie 23453)
User 10023 = Yun-fat Chow (or whatever the user decides is the name he/she wants displayed for this actor in the local actor database)

I think with this system, we can satisfy pretty much all the different factions out there.  We can start out with the default of Actor10023 = Cast102Movie23453 = User 10023 and refine the names to our satisfaction from then on without ruining the online database, "as credited name", and have accurate linking.  Additional advantage is if unicode is ever added to the program, we can quickly adjust the names to reflect actual credits without destroying the existing linking.

While that'd be a good way to do it if we were starting the program and the database anew, it'd be a bit much to try to redo the entire cast and crew databases to accommodate this.  While I'm sympathetic to the problem, I'm not sure there's a workable solution.