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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
@ Skip:
The example I gave is precisely such a case, with the ADR Group sandwiched between Cast and Additional Cast. It's the IMAX film "Hearst Castle: Building the Dream".
I agree that normally ADR is part of non-contributable crew - this particular case might be different though. I actually had to think of what you (paraphrased) usually say: "who are we to know better than the movie producers?" In this particular case, that might read as: if they are credited among cast, then enter them as cast. Dejay: Not being familiar with the film and its credits its real hard for me to say. I go where the data takes me, which makes life very easy, I don't create interpretations. If by sandwiched you mean that there is a Cast list, followed somewhere else in the listing by ADR (probably with the rest of siound) followed by another list of Additional Voices , I would say no. However. if like Stunt people sometimes have been known to happen, if you have Cast Cast ADR ADR Cast Aditional Voices(Common in animation) Then I would say yes, but they must actually appear to be part of the cast listing, save for the Additional Voices. Do I wish Hollywood would be more unified in their data...yes, but that is why I TRY when possible to be flexible, but generally speaking ADR simply is not part of the Cast data, though there may be rare instances to the contrary. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
I personally think the best way to handle it is the same way we do stunt people.... if it is listed in with the crew... it is considered crew. If it is within the cast list then (and only then) it should be considered cast. That is decidely the worst possible way for just about anything. Either we track something, or we don't. Not just sometimes, merely based on the whim of the guy responsible for typing up the end credits. "If it's listed there, it's X, and if it's listed there, it's Y" is ridiculous: it is what it is, no matter where it's listed. Whatever we do, PLEASE let's not go that way. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | Well... I personally would either do that... or not include them at all. | | | | Pete |
| | Registered: March 28, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,299 |
| | Posted: | | | | In terms of film making, ADR talents are never considered crew. There's no debating that fact. In terms of DVD Profiler? Well, that's another kettle of fish altogether.
The unions ADR talent qualify for are actor specific ones, such ACTRA, as opposed to crew focused ones like IATSE or NABET.
But, are they considered cast? That's when it gets a little trickier.
As we've seen, they're generally credited separately from the regular cast, but that has more to do with the fact that their work is done in post rather than production, and less to do with whether they're cast or crew.
If I were forced to give them a designation I'd call them performers rather than cast or crew. When you're having budget discussions and try to determine how much to set aside for ADR performers, their subcategory is indeed called that: ADR performers.
Rather than debating whether ADR performers are Cast or Crew, I think a more important question is:
Should we track ADR performers?
If the answer to that question is yes, I think it much more logical to track them in the cast category rather than crew. Perhaps with a new checkbox for ADR instead of just using the Voice checkbox.
KM | | | Tags, tags, bo bags, banana fana fo fags, mi my mo mags, TAGS!
Dolly's not alone. You can also clone profiles.
You've got questions? You've got answers? Take the DVD Profiler Wiki for a spin. | | | | Last edited: by Astrakan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | I would prefer that we simply leave them all out. They are crew...otherwise they would have been given a role as opposed to a crew title. Are they performers? Yes, but so are stunt doubles...dance stand ins...body doubles...the list goes on and on. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Some very points there Astrakan.
Personally I don't see the point of recording the ADR "cast" when we don't record the ADR "crew" (the ADR editors, recorders and mixers) so I say if it's either all or none (and not like stunts) then we exclude them from the cast list. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
I would prefer that we simply leave them all out. They are crew...otherwise they would have been given a role as opposed to a crew title. I have to agree with Unicus. Use of the Conditional (which I HATE) is simply to allow for that rae bird where they might actually be listed in the Cast data. As I said, I simply follow the data, I do NOT interpret or include data which has not been allowed for by the Rules. IN terms of Crew data, with 3.5 I now have a method to deal with data which is not per the Rules, but might be data in which I have a particular interest. If you want to include ADR data, you have that ability in your local through the Custom fields, to do otherwise is completely ignoring the Rules and trying to impose my preferences to the Online by creating new definitions which are outside of the Rules. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
Some very points there Astrakan.
Personally I don't see the point of recording the ADR "cast" when we don't record the ADR "crew" (the ADR editors, recorders and mixers) so I say if it's either all or none (and not like stunts) then we exclude them from the cast list. And THAT decision is up to Ken, if he wants to add a category for ADR, then I am game, but it belongs where it belongs and that is in the Crew, that someone who works in ADR considers himself or herself and actor is not really relevant, and i might even agree that they are actors but that isn't relevant either. The industry considers them as part of the Sound Crew. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: July 31, 2008 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,506 |
| | Posted: | | | | I don't mind if it's decided to include them or not but whatever please don't go down the road of if they're included in the cast include them, if they're in the crew don't. It'll only add confusion & you can pretty much guarantee that some people will try to sneak some through the net. In my opinion it should be an all or nothing. |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | I think we are forgetting what the rule says Cast For the purposes of this section we define "standard" film credits as those where all credited actors involved are listed together in a single section at the end of the film - defined here as the "end credits". The section details both the actor’s Name and the Role that they played in the film. The credits may be listed "in order of appearance", "alphabetical order" or in an order of importance decided by the filmmakers. Some actors may be credited a second time in either credits at either the opening or close of the film. For any film with standard credits, take the actor information from the end credits only, with names and roles listed exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited. Exception: If the credit information is entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead. bold and italics by me So unless they are grouped with the actors, they cannot (by the rules) be listed in cast. Until the rules are changed, or amended.  edit: It is the only way that stunt people(doubles) or stand-ins are credited. | | | | Last edited: by CharlieM |
| | Registered: March 28, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,299 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
The industry considers them as part of the Sound Crew. No they don't. If they were considered crew they'd be covered by crew unions rather than actor unions. KM | | | Tags, tags, bo bags, banana fana fo fags, mi my mo mags, TAGS!
Dolly's not alone. You can also clone profiles.
You've got questions? You've got answers? Take the DVD Profiler Wiki for a spin. |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Astrakan: Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
The industry considers them as part of the Sound Crew.
No they don't. If they were considered crew they'd be covered by crew unions rather than actor unions.
KM I agree. If they are to go anywhere (and I hope they don't go anywhere) it's in the cast list. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Union coverage is not relevant. The Credits and where they are listed is the relevant issue abnd they are NOT normally considered actors, they are normally listed as part of the crew.  That is a FACT. You are creating an interpretation of data, to suit your preferences, and that is fine, Astra...locally. Locally I don't care what you do and I suspect you don't care what i do, the overlap comes in the Online and we have not provided to date provided for ADR, go to the Rules and show me where they are said to be Ok. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | With all due respect, north, THAT is interpreting the data differently from the way it is dealt with ON SCREEN
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Astrakan: Quote:
In terms of film making, ADR talents are never considered crew. There's no debating that fact. In terms of DVD Profiler? Well, that's another kettle of fish altogether.
The unions ADR talent qualify for are actor specific ones, such ACTRA, as opposed to crew focused ones like IATSE or NABET.
But, are they considered cast? That's when it gets a little trickier.
As we've seen, they're generally credited separately from the regular cast, but that has more to do with the fact that their work is done in post rather than production, and less to do with whether they're cast or crew.
If I were forced to give them a designation I'd call them performers rather than cast or crew. When you're having budget discussions and try to determine how much to set aside for ADR performers, their subcategory is indeed called that: ADR performers.
Rather than debating whether ADR performers are Cast or Crew, I think a more important question is:
Should we track ADR performers?
If the answer to that question is yes, I think it much more logical to track them in the cast category rather than crew. Perhaps with a new checkbox for ADR instead of just using the Voice checkbox.
KM Excellent points, Astrakan. This post causes me to lean toward including them and doing so as cast. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Union coverage is not relevant. The Credits and where they are listed is the relevant issue abnd they are NOT normally considered actors, they are normally listed as part of the crew. That is a FACT. You are creating an interpretation of data, to suit your preferences, and that is fine, Astra...locally. Locally I don't care what you do and I suspect you don't care what i do, the overlap comes in the Online and we have not provided to date provided for ADR, go to the Rules and show me where they are said to be Ok.
Skip What is in the rules is irrelevant. Gerri has asked for opinions on this matter, and that is what is being done. |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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