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Quoting m.cellophane:

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Quoting northbloke:

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That's not what James is saying. He is saying that although the title must come from the front cover, there's nothing preventing you from using external information in order to interpret what's on the front cover.

Yes, that's the less wordy version of what I tried to say. 

I don't agree at all, James and i have no problem understanding what the title  is PER the Rules. this, is not a question about anything other than a user tha totally wants to ignore what the Rules clearly state in order to manipulate the Online to his bias. The Rule is very clear and i have absolutely no problem understanding but then I do not try to insert my bias, IF I have any biases and I DO, they belong in ONE place...my local, just as Nadja's bias belongs in his local,

Skip

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That's a bogus example, James but nice try. you have overlooked one very important phrase in the Rules.

Episode descriptors are part of the title; separate them with a colon and space; e.g. "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". For multiple descriptors, use a colon and space for each break.

This movie IS a sequel (Episode) to Step Up. Unlike Cradle 2 Grave which is a STAND-ALONE to my knowledge.

Skip

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Quoting skipnet50:

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Quoting m.cellophane:

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Quoting northbloke:

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That's not what James is saying. He is saying that although the title must come from the front cover, there's nothing preventing you from using external information in order to interpret what's on the front cover.

Yes, that's the less wordy version of what I tried to say. 

I don't agree at all, James and i have no problem understanding what the title  is PER the Rules. this, is not a question about anything other than a user tha totally wants to ignore what the Rules clearly state in order to manipulate the Online to his bias. The Rule is very clear and i have absolutely no problem understanding but then I do not try to insert my bias, IF I have any biases and I DO, they belong in ONE place...my local, just as Nadja's bias belongs in his local,

Skip

You have no problem knowing what your opinion is for what the title is. You are still making an interpretation and you are adding data (the colon) based on your interpretation.

Quoting skipnet50:

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That's a bogus example, James but nice try. you have overlooked one very important phrase in the Rules.

Episode descriptors are part of the title; separate them with a colon and space; e.g. "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". For multiple descriptors, use a colon and space for each break.

This movie IS a sequel (Episode) to Step Up. Unlike Cradle 2 Grave which is a STAND-ALONE to my knowledge.

Skip

"to my knowledge" <-- That's my point. You can't know in either example whether they are episodic titles or not based solely on what you see on the front cover. You are telling me that I can't bring in the knowledge that the filmmakers show the title on the back cover as "Step Up 2 The Streets" while you are allowing yourself the knowledge that it's an episodic title. On the one hand, you say you are just using the front cover. On the other, you admit your knowledge that it's a sequel.

Using the cover alone on Cradle 2 the Grave, you wouldn't be able to make a determination unless you had the knowledge that it's not a sequel. At that point, you know it's not an episodic title.

My point is that you need something other than the text on the cover to help you decide...in both examples.

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Quoting m.cellophane:

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My point is that you need something other than the text on the cover to help you decide...in both examples.

True, however the contribution rules require you to do this - they speak of "Episode descriptors" without telling you how to identify them. And rightly so, because there's no clear-cut way of doing that.

Meanwhile, having gone through 5 pages of discussion, I've started to wonder if the dispute is addressing the right issue. My point is this. Whereas I find myself in agreement with Dragon, Skip, Unicus and Northbloke on what the title of the DVD is according to the Contribution Rules, the points brought forward by the users on the other side of the argument strike me as referring not so much to what the title of the DVD is, but to what the actual title of the film is.
Now, if there's any truth to this, wouldn't this imply that this whole discussion should actually be about - put in DVDP terms - whether or not to use the Original Title field?

Just for the record: I have no personal opinion on the latter issue myself, as I can't verify it - I don't have this title and I wouldn't care to have it. I was only wondering whether the whole discussion was addressing the right issue.

Edit: the Contribution Rules on Original Titles say:  Use the title from the copyright notice if available, otherwise from the film's credits. Which seems to imply that if the copyright notice title is different from the front cover title, then using the Original Title field is indicated.

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Quoting m.cellophane:

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Quoting skipnet50:

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Quoting m.cellophane:

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Quoting northbloke:

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That's not what James is saying. He is saying that although the title must come from the front cover, there's nothing preventing you from using external information in order to interpret what's on the front cover.

Yes, that's the less wordy version of what I tried to say. 

I don't agree at all, James and i have no problem understanding what the title  is PER the Rules. this, is not a question about anything other than a user tha totally wants to ignore what the Rules clearly state in order to manipulate the Online to his bias. The Rule is very clear and i have absolutely no problem understanding but then I do not try to insert my bias, IF I have any biases and I DO, they belong in ONE place...my local, just as Nadja's bias belongs in his local,

Skip

You have no problem knowing what your opinion is for what the title is. You are still making an interpretation and you are adding data (the colon) based on your interpretation.

Quoting skipnet50:

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That's a bogus example, James but nice try. you have overlooked one very important phrase in the Rules.

Episode descriptors are part of the title; separate them with a colon and space; e.g. "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". For multiple descriptors, use a colon and space for each break.

This movie IS a sequel (Episode) to Step Up. Unlike Cradle 2 Grave which is a STAND-ALONE to my knowledge.

Skip

"to my knowledge" <-- That's my point. You can't know in either example whether they are episodic titles or not based solely on what you see on the front cover. You are telling me that I can't bring in the knowledge that the filmmakers show the title on the back cover as "Step Up 2 The Streets" while you are allowing yourself the knowledge that it's an episodic title. On the one hand, you say you are just using the front cover. On the other, you admit your knowledge that it's a sequel.

Using the cover alone on Cradle 2 the Grave, you wouldn't be able to make a determination unless you had the knowledge that it's not a sequel. At that point, you know it's not an episodic title.

My point is that you need something other than the text on the cover to help you decide...in both examples.

Not rue, James. My opinion is based upon the Rules. You, as is your wont, are williung to totally disregard thge Rules in order to allow a user to impose his will, in short you are willing to break the rules, how many tiomes have I watched you go through these gyrations and twisted logic to do precisely that...too many count, my friend. I don't understand why you are willing to do this nor do i really care. BUT the Rules are clear and do NOT in any way support your position. Not do they in any way allow for the introduction of information other than what is seen on the cover, and since this is a SEQUEL and not a stand alone film then the Rule applies, unlike your example which IS a stand alone film.

I am not trying to argue with you, James, butyou really do leave totally confused as to your logic and motives.

Skip

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Quoting Unicus69:

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Quoting m.cellophane:

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(...)
If we make assumptions based on how graphical text is shown, we'll end up with 007 preceding or following all of those titles.    We have to allow ourselves some considered thought on how we do everything.

But I didn't make an assumption based on how the text is shown.  My interpretation is based on what the text says and the use of the number 2.  The fact that the phrases 'Step Up 2' and 'The Streets' are seperate just reinforces that interpretation.

You made an assumption that the number 2 is an episode number. You can't know that solely from the front cover.

(...)

With "Step Up 2 the Streets", one can't tell from the front cover whether it's a sequel or not. You can't know that the 2 is an episode number or a play on the word "to". You need more information, just as one needs with "Cradle 2 the Grave".

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Quoting skipnet50:

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James:

I can only judge what I see, I am sorry if it upsets you. I read what the Rules say and am left honestly wondering how you cna see it any differently. First point, unlike the example you tried to provide we ARE indeed discussing a SEQUEL, THAT is clearly spelled out in the Rules, the Title comes from the cover...aha now I see you will respond it doesn't say front or back...just the cover.<shakes head> The lengths that won't be extended in order to pervert things. I give up, I am tired of the circular logic and constant spinning, not just by you, James. People simply want the Online to reflect their bias, whatever it is and to hell with everyone else. It makes me sad, my objective was to create a SINGLE page from which we could all operate with respect to the Online, and our local was our business, but peoplewill try ANY argument they can think of in order to see the Online as THEY want to see it....I tried and very obviously failed to take into account human nature.

Skip

I'm not upset. If you are left wondering how I can see things differently from you, that's fine with me.

I object to you assigning negative motives to those whose opinions you don't understand. The fact that you continue to dismiss the Cradle 2 the Grave example on the basis that it's not a sequel is a case in point. You don't understand it, so you dismiss it and assign a negative motive.

Feel free to disagree, but please drop the motive stuff.

Quoting Unicus69:

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Quoting m.cellophane:

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Quoting Unicus69:

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Quoting m.cellophane:

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(...)
If we make assumptions based on how graphical text is shown, we'll end up with 007 preceding or following all of those titles.    We have to allow ourselves some considered thought on how we do everything.

But I didn't make an assumption based on how the text is shown.  My interpretation is based on what the text says and the use of the number 2.  The fact that the phrases 'Step Up 2' and 'The Streets' are seperate just reinforces that interpretation.

You made an assumption that the number 2 is an episode number. You can't know that solely from the front cover.

(...)

With "Step Up 2 the Streets", one can't tell from the front cover whether it's a sequel or not. You can't know that the 2 is an episode number or a play on the word "to". You need more information, just as one needs with "Cradle 2 the Grave".

You are correct, I need more information than is available on the front cover.  But I have that information...it's in the overview...though I really didn't need to read it as I alread knew it was a sequal.  I will admit that that knowledge did help with my interpretation.  Sorry if I didn't make that clear earlier.

That same overview lists the title twice without the colon. If you can use knowledge gleaned from the overview, then I should be able to use it too. The knowledge that the filmmakers don't use the colon helped with my interpretation.

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Episode descriptors are part of the title; separate them with a colon and space; e.g. "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". For multiple descriptors, use a colon and space for each break.

This a Sequel (Episode) to the Original Step Up, the Rule does not say look somewhere or justify something, it says Step 2: The Streets.

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You have made it all too clear that you want me to shut up, James.

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But you are ignoring the rules and as long as you continue to insist on doing that, I don't know what other conclusion I can reach, but that you are trying to rationalize a user putting his personal thumbprint on the Online. If you did not know that Step Up 2 was a sequel then you were out of line jumping into the middle of something you did not know about. I am trying desperately to come with something that makes rational sense for your departure from the Rules, but i can't and your desire to shut me up only serves to reinforce what I have come to believe.

Skip (pulling out hair)

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You are correct, I need more information than is available on the front cover.  But I have that information...it's in the overview...though I really didn't need to read it as I alread knew it was a sequal.  I will admit that that knowledge did help with my interpretation.  Sorry if I didn't make that clear earlier.

That same overview lists the title twice without the colon. If you can use knowledge gleaned from the overview, then I should be able to use it too. The knowledge that the filmmakers don't use the colon helped with my interpretation.

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James, as I see it we have what the Rules tell us to do with SEQUELS, ANYTHING else is simply trying to rationalize a reason to not follow the Rules.

Skip