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| Registered: March 20, 2007 |  Posts: 78 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting smeehrrr: Quote:
I'm really confused. If "last name" in this program simply means "the last name to appear in the credit", then why do we have these arguments about Helena Bonham Carter? If first, middle, and last simply refer to order, then there's no way "Bonham Carter" should be in the last name field, right?  Quoting smeehrrr: Quote:
So, given that we've already established that there are semantic meanings to those fields beyond simple word placement, why can't we agree that those semantic meanings should be consistently applied regardless of the culture of the credited? Because the rules allow other interpretations of parsing these names (and some people use them for a No-vote). |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 |  Posts: 103 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting schizzzo: Quote:
And to get a consistent database: Should we write "Yun Fat" or "Yun-Fat"? I would prefer the second version to get clear it is one name I think in that case you would have to go with whichever is used most often in credits, though of course if we're talking Asian movies it most likely isn't romanised. I'm not familiar with romanisation systems for Chinese names, but if there's an accepted standard for how to convert his name to our alphabet then I would follow that. |
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| Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Posts: 374 |
| | Posted: | | | | Skip here are some DVD's that might be available at your local DVD store, could help you to better understand the problem when you look at their credits To Live Region 1 Released: 01/07/2003 Anamorphic 1.85:1 Together Region 1 Released: 18/11/2003 Anamorphic 1.85:1 Devils on the Doorstep Region 1 Released: 19/04/2005 Anamorphic 1.85:1 Shanghai Triad Region 1 Released: 12/12/2000 Anamorphic 1.85:1 Springtime in a Small Town Region 1 Released: 23/11/2004 Anamorphic 1.85:1 Farewell My Concubine: Miramax Classics Widescreen Region 1 Released: 14/12/1999 Widescreen 1.85:1  |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Posts: 103 |
| | Posted: | | | | Here's an example for the benefit of Skip as to why a dogmatic insistence on using names "as shown on screen" is not just unhelpful but also completely unworkable. This is from an R1 anime release, My Hime. Here are the credits from the end of an episode:  The cast member named on the first line romanises to Nakahara Mai, in that order (since Japanese names written in kanji use family/given order). So under Skip's rules presumably we would enter that as Nakahara//Mai. Unfortunately, leave the DVD playing and we get this:  So now we have to enter her as Mai//Nakahara. Oh my god, whatever shall we do?!?!! |
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| Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheFly: Quote:
So now we have to enter her as Mai//Nakahara. Oh my god, whatever shall we do?!?!! It's very simple: enter the last name in the "last name" field, and so on. What is "last name"? It's a synonym for "family name". Who says so? Wikipedia (I've just quoted it in this thread), dictionaries, anyone you ask outside of this forum .  | | | | -- Enry |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Posts: 103 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
It's very simple: enter the last name in the "last name" field, and so on. What is "last name"? It's a synonym for "family name". Who says so? Wikipedia (I've just quoted it in this thread), dictionaries, anyone you ask outside of this forum . Yep, exactly. My viewpoint all along has been that "First Name" should be taken to mean (or ideally renamed) "Given Name(s)", and "Last name" -> "Family Name". And we don't need "Middle Name" at all, it just makes things needlessly complicated. |
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| Registered: March 26, 2007 | | Posts: 196 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheFly: Quote:
Yep, exactly. My viewpoint all along has been that "First Name" should be taken to mean (or ideally renamed) "Given Name(s)", and "Last name" -> "Family Name". And we don't need "Middle Name" at all, it just makes things needlessly complicated. And this leads us to ask "Why do we have separate fields at all?", the answer to which, I believe, is "for sorting purposes". So whatever's in the last name field should be the primary sort key, and whatever's in the other fields should be secondary sort keys. So, would you expect to find Chow Yun Fat under 'F' or under 'C'? Because I am an idiot, I would expect to find it under 'F', but my ignorance of Asian names doesn't mean we should put the wrong thing in the database. |
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| Registered: April 7, 2007 | | Posts: 357 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheFly: Quote:
We had almost exactly the same discussion a few weeks ago in this thread, and many of us arrived at the same conclusion then that we're arriving at now. That is, to interpret "First Name" as "Given Name", "Last Name" as "Family Name" and use Credited As to document any difference in presentation.
This really is the only sensible way to create a database that has one and only one entry for each person, whilst keeping consistency between different naming conventions so that data can be sorted properly etc. Actually only 8 people voted for that in that thread. There were 24 for each of the other options split with either just having the as credited or using credited as but the vast majority wanted First name and last name in the profile as credited. Half of those liking the comoon name option. | | | | Last edited: by Graveworm |
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| Registered: March 26, 2007 | | Posts: 196 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Graveworm: Quote:
Actually only 8 people voted for that in that thread. There24 for each option were split with either just having the as credited or using credited as but th evast majority wanted First name and last name in the profile as credited. That poll is badly written, because it assumes that "as credited" means something that it does not. "Li Gong" is not in reverse order as the poll implies. |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Posts: 103 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Graveworm: Quote:
Actually only 8 people voted for that in that thread. There were 24 for each of the other options split with either just having the as credited or using credited as but the vast majority wanted First name and last name in the profile as credited. Half of those liking the comoon name option. One of the options that got 24 was "use of credited as feature f.e Li Gong credited as Gong Li". Whilst not explicitly clear, I read that as putting given name "Li" in first name field, family name "Gong" in last name field, and using Credited As to show how it appeared on screen. Which is exactly what we are suggesting here. The option that only got 8 votes was to enter the name as above but without using Credited As. |
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| Registered: April 7, 2007 | | Posts: 357 |
| | Posted: | | | | The poll asks how we should enter them for Gong Li |
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| Registered: March 26, 2007 | | Posts: 196 |
| | Posted: | | | | Here are the options that the poll gave: Quote:
reverse order to match first/last name field f.e Li Gong
as credited f.e. Gong Li
use of credited as feature f.e Li Gong credited as Gong Li
In my opinion, the answers are prejudicial. "Li Gong" is not "reverse order", nor is "Gong Li" "as credited". |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Posts: 103 |
| | Posted: | | | | You need the thread title too really for it to make sense: "Parsing chinese names, example Gong (Family name) Li (given name)"
I agree though that it's still badly worded. In my earlier comment I was really referring to the discussion that went on in that thread, rather than the vote. |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheFly: Quote:
Quoting schizzzo:
Quote:
And to get a consistent database: Should we write "Yun Fat" or "Yun-Fat"? I would prefer the second version to get clear it is one name
I think in that case you would have to go with whichever is used most often in credits, though of course if we're talking Asian movies it most likely isn't romanised.
I'm not familiar with romanisation systems for Chinese names, but if there's an accepted standard for how to convert his name to our alphabet then I would follow that. There is a sticky thread on this very topic in this section of the Forum. Proposal for romanization of names of Chinese/HK actors and actresses for the database | | | | My Home Theater | | | | Last edited: by xradman |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | The utter hypocrisy here reeks, I am through with a bunch of people who insist that a partcular subset of data be treated as something different from other similar data. To those who have tried my position has NOTHING repeat NOTHING with oriental characters which cannot be dealt with by the program. As long as some users will continue to assault a user with negative reputation just because he does not share your opinion, I am not interested in playing with such intolerant and unintelligent people that instead of engaging in discussion, they attempt to use their power to SILENCE a user. I have some other terms I could use, but hypocisy works nicely is and is far and away the least of my thoughts.  Grow up!!!!!!!!!!!!! Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Graveworm: Quote:
Try telling a Native American the dictionary says they are Indians. Little OT, but The Smithsonian Museum here in Washington DC opened a new museum couple of years ago to honor, preserve, display, and educate the public about native Americans. After much debate, guess what they (US Congress) named the new museum? National Museum of the American Indian | | | | My Home Theater |
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