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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Box Set Rule or Feature Film Rule |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Scooter1836: Quote:
Yes it has been ruled to not be a media type. but several discussion threads since December 2011 in this foruma and contribution rulles comittee forum did get the concensus that the optional profiles would be allowed when the discs contained different content and in this case they do. Concensus doesn't equal rule, but that wasn't my point. It just seemed odd, to me, to only remove one child profile when neither is technically allowed. Quote:
Also what was cited in the contribution was it should be considered a bonus film. Well bonus films are allowed to have optional profiles when they exist of different discs. I don't believe this qualifies as a bonus film as it is the same film. Quote:
Profiling the 3D releases with more child profiles isn't new. Exactly how to profiles these has needed Ken's attention for a long time Agreed. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 5,734 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quote:
That profile has optional child profiles for the 3D, BD and DVD to show the individual contents of each disc and the parent profile is profiled as the union of the 3D and BD (not the 3D alone).
He has a pending contribution to remove the optional child profile for the 3D BD.
I don't understand why he would remove the profile for the 3D BD, but not the BD as, technically, neither is allowed. Neither do I. Now another contribution is needed to also remove the second irregular child. | | | | Don't confuse while the film is playing with when the film is played. [Ken Cole, DVD Profiler Architect] |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 485 |
| | Posted: | | | | Let's take a bit more 'clinical' analysis. First look at what distributors offer us to buy, then analyse whether the rules create havoc or provide a solution. As Kathy wrote, 3D is a distinct type of coding not handled (yet) by the majority of DVD- and BluRay-players nor by TV's. Even today, you'll have to be on the 'bleeding edge' of technology to buy into it. Gauging by the reactions so far in this thread a fair share of us are on that edge. But is doesn't mean a 3D BR is the same medium as standard BR. Yes, it is the same kind of plastic, but it is the whole package, included the hardcoded movie on it, that is sold. So I do not agree with the notion that it's just another br-disk. Also, for a (probably not perfect) analogy: we have DVD Audio yet we do not catalogue that in the online DB. Same disk (DVD), yet a slightly different format. Now whether the 3D copy is only presented in the parent or as a seperate disk too. As Swissfilm correctly noted: Quoting SwissFilm: Quote:
Very often here in Europe on the Blu-ray 3D we have f.e. only English and German Audio Tracks. On the seperate Blu-ray 2D we have then 5 languages in Audio Tracks, so more. When I contribute all in the parent profile, do I put all Audio Tracks regardless on which of the two Blu-ray they are? Sometimes even the Video Formats are different, one 2:35:1 and the other 1.78:1. Though bouth Blu-rays, 2D and 3D have a lot of differences that are not easy to put into one parent profile. Also, 3D releases tend to be the theatrical version, bypassing any 'extended' version released at the same time or previously on BR. See The Green Lantern 3D or the upcoming Avatar 3D. Which make the 3D disk very distinct from the 2D disk. See also the USA 3D release of John Carter (786936819076). For better or for worse, the bonus features are scattered between the 3D disk, the 2D disk and the DVD. This is a great example why it makes sense to add each disk seperately to the profile. Amalgating all features into the parent profile (3D disk) while not subprofiling the main disk seperately too creates IMHO a mess. Assessing the arguments, I'd say there are two options: 1. Create seperate entries for each disk included. In that way, DVDprofiler profiles each physical disk. 2. Do not create any subprofiles. In that way, DVDprofiler profiles the released retail package. Anything inbetween is a fuss-up. It means going for profiling each disk but exempting the main disk. I know current practise leans towards (1.) and the discussion here is about 1. vs. 'inbetween'. But to remember: the current rule on TV season box sets, allows optionally to enter the physical disks as subprofiles. Which means each disk gets double registration, both in the parent and in the subprofile. Me thinks, a mess. Now how do the current rules cover this? I do not pretend to be expert on all things, but shouldn't we focus on whether the rules should change or not? | | | Eric
If it is important, say it. Otherwise, let silence speak. | | | | Last edited: by eommen |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting Scooter1836:
Quote:
Just to put things in context. CharlieM's post is based on a contribution
"The Avengers" - 786936819670 (3D/BD/DVD) Combo
That profile has optional child profiles for the 3D, BD and DVD to show the individual contents of each disc and the parent profile is profiled as the union of the 3D and BD (not the 3D alone).
He has a pending contribution to remove the optional child profile for the 3D BD.
I don't understand why he would remove the profile for the 3D BD, but not the BD as, technically, neither is allowed. Per the rules, a combo which includes HD media (HD-DVD, Blu-ray) as well as DVD should use the details from the HD media in the main profile. Since Ken decided, when the new version was released, that 3D was not a media type, the only child profile allowed would be the one for the DVD. In what other profile type do we combine the data of multiple discs into one single profile (aside from maybe TV) The way that you would have us do it, would combine all the information from the 2D and 3D discs into a single profile. Say 3 audio from 3D followed by 5 audio from 2D, then check all the subtitles that are on both, and have no way to differentiate the discs (even the possibility of different video formats, or run lengths). This to me doesn't sound logical or the intent of what Ken was trying to do. (Maybe I'm wrong, and this is what Ken actually wants). I think the rule needs to be changed, and treat all combo packs as box sets, with next to no information in the parent, and all the info in the children. The discs, (for the online) then would not be optional. Charlie | | | | Last edited: by CharlieM |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 485 |
| | Posted: | | | | Personally, I'd say the rules need some clean-up and change. Since on all matters moviewise, a lot of us (I didn't count) want to go into the hairy details. Be that obscure crew roles, be that anal on the precise coding of audio channels or video format. Etc. I'm not saying it is wrong, I'm just observing the level of detail that DVDprofiler nowadays registers. If we want to be that detailed, I'd say we should have rules that, without a doubt, emphasises subprofiling each disk. But as a matter of consistency, this sould then also apply to TV season box sets, omitting the optionality. If we want things to go by documenting only the retailed package, we should also remove the optional inclusion of subprofile disks in TV season box sets. In any case, keeping rules that are up for multiple interpretation seems bad to me. But that's just me  | | | Eric
If it is important, say it. Otherwise, let silence speak. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 485 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
...I think the rule needs to be changed, and treat all combo packs as box sets, with next to no information in the parent, and all the info in the children. The discs, (for the online) then would not be optional.
Charlie Keeping in mind there still are very few 3D movies (take any online retailer and you'll probably end up, at most, around one hundred), multiplied by a number of localities, changing the rules NOW creates a very doable change. It is not like adding a colour attribute to the hundreds of thousands of profiles in the whole online DB. That said, it would also imply changes to all "BluRay+DVD" type of releases out there. Also there, the BR is far from identical in features with respect to the DVD. That would be a lot more changes. So I think now is a right moment to do any changes. | | | Eric
If it is important, say it. Otherwise, let silence speak. | | | | Last edited: by eommen |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 5,734 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting eommen: Quote:
So I do not agree with the notion that it's just another br-disk. But it is, we've been there. "3D" is nothing more than a codec, an amendment called MVC to the AVC video codec, on your usual UDF Blu-ray medium. You can read out a Blu-ray "3D" with every Blu-ray disc drive, and MVC is even backwards compatible to AVC. | | | | Don't confuse while the film is playing with when the film is played. [Ken Cole, DVD Profiler Architect] |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 3,197 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
2. We Profile the main BD (whether it be 2D or 3D) as the parent profile, then profile the remaining discs as child profiles.
In my opinion, number 2 would be the best option, in todays environment.
This is imo all that is required. No need for a program update. No need for changing thousands of existing combo profiles into box sets. No utopian dreams about a database rewrite. Just a simple rule change. | | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
| | Registered: October 30, 2011 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 1,870 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting KinoNiki: Quote:
Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
2. We Profile the main BD (whether it be 2D or 3D) as the parent profile, then profile the remaining discs as child profiles.
In my opinion, number 2 would be the best option, in todays environment.
This is imo all that is required. No need for a program update. No need for changing thousands of existing combo profiles into box sets. No utopian dreams about a database rewrite. Just a simple rule change. Which were the main points of discussions in the 'Contribution Rulles Committee" forum a few months back. How to build the parent profile and what children should be there. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
The way that you would have us do it, would combine all the information from the 2D and 3D discs into a single profile. Say 3 audio from 3D followed by 5 audio from 2D, then check all the subtitles that are on both, and have no way to differentiate the discs (even the possibility of different video formats, or run lengths). Let me be perfectly clear here, this is not the way I would have us do it, it is the way the rules say to do it. The way I would have us do it is quite different. Quote:
This to me doesn't sound logical or the intent of what Ken was trying to do. (Maybe I'm wrong, and this is what Ken actually wants). I never said it was logical, nor do I know what Ken intended. All I know is what the rule actually says. Quote:
I think the rule needs to be changed, and treat all combo packs as box sets, with next to no information in the parent, and all the info in the children. The discs, (for the online) then would not be optional. Yea, I can't agree with this. In my opinion, the main profile should reflect the main disc with children for the bonus discs... Sold as a 3D Blu-ray + Blu-ray + DVD, main profile for 3D Blu-ray, child profiles for the restSold as a Blu-ray + 3D + DVD, main profile for Blu-ray, child profiles for the restSold as Blu-ray + DVD, main profile for Blu-ray, child profile for the DVDSold as DVD + Blu-ray, main profile for DVD, child profile for the Blu-rayThat, to me, makes the most sense and is how I would have us do it. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | I agree with Martian... that is how I would prefer it to work as well. | | | | Pete |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting eommen: Quote:
That said, it would also imply changes to all "BluRay+DVD" type of releases out there. Also there, the BR is far from identical in features with respect to the DVD. That would be a lot more changes. I am not sure why there would be any changes to all Blu-ray+DVD releases as the rules are quite clear on how to handle them...main profile is based on the HD media, with all included media types checked and a child profile for the DVD. The problem with 3D Blu-ray+Blu-ray+DVD releases is that there are two HD media discs included with no provision in the rules telling us which takes precedence. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,217 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
In my opinion, the main profile should reflect the main disc with children for the bonus discs... Yes, the 'main proflie' of a Combo should only reflect one disc, mixing together information of two or more such discs is simply wrong, as it renders the data unusable. (See e.g. SwissFilms mention of different Audio Tracks) But: Quote:
Sold as a 3D Blu-ray + Blu-ray + DVD, main profile for 3D Blu-ray, child profiles for the rest
Sold as a Blu-ray + 3D + DVD, main profile for Blu-ray, child profiles for the rest
Sold as Blu-ray + DVD, main profile for Blu-ray, child profile for the DVD
Sold as DVD + Blu-ray, main profile for DVD, child profile for the Blu-ray seems a bit vague for me. That could lead to endless discussions about "sold as" I'd prefer a absolute strict order: 3D-BD => BD => DVD If someone prefers the BD-Profile yet doesn't want child profiles he can simply download the 3D-BD and BD profile and simply copy one over the other and delete the child. cya, Mithi | | | | Mithi's little XSLT tinkering - the power of XML --- DVD-Profiler Mini-Wiki |
| | Registered: March 23, 2011 | | Posts: 462 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Mithi: Quote:
If someone prefers the BD-Profile yet doesn't want child profiles he can simply download the 3D-BD and BD profile and simply copy one over the other and delete the child.
Isn't there a problem with that too? How should he receive updates to the profile ? |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Mithi: Quote:
[...]seems a bit vague for me. That could lead to endless discussions about "sold as"
I'd prefer a absolute strict order: 3D-BD => BD => DVD
If someone prefers the BD-Profile yet doesn't want child profiles he can simply download the 3D-BD and BD profile and simply copy one over the other and delete the child.
cya, Mithi If the rule is written correctly this wouldn't be a problem. You would go by the order they are listed on the cover...  Blu-ray parent DVD Parent | | | | Pete |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,217 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting force: Quote:
Quoting Mithi:
Quote:
If someone prefers the BD-Profile yet doesn't want child profiles he can simply download the 3D-BD and BD profile and simply copy one over the other and delete the child.
Isn't there a problem with that too? How should he receive updates to the profile ? Well, as always when you go 'against' the online-db ... "His problem" .. 8) cya, Mithi | | | | Mithi's little XSLT tinkering - the power of XML --- DVD-Profiler Mini-Wiki |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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