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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 34 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
You don't seem to understand, Martin: we're now talking about Kijkwijzer-rated DVD's without any additional rating details on the cover or on-screen. THEN we should be allowed to take them from the corresponding kijkwijzer.nl website, right? I've already seen you submit these yourself. That is EXACTLY what the rules prescribe - and we're strictly talking about Kijkwijzer now. O T!M, please. Then why did you vote against my contribution of The Avengers using the argument of the invalid entry at kijkwijzer (thiswas rated by SBS for tv and you know this very well). The dvd of The Avengers has the old Videovoorlichtingssysteem rating. Now you are using different arguments here. Please be consistent and change your vote. | | | | Last edited: by Jeronimo |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Again: you're referring to two completely different issues. I disagree with you on both of them for completely different reasons. It's obvious that we'll never get to agree on how to handle DVD's with the old Videovoorlichtingssysteem-logo's, so I won't even go into that again. However, for Kijkwijzer-rated DVD's, if there are no rating details on the cover or on-screen, it should be absolutely clear that the rules do, very specifically, allow to get the rating details from the "region-specific ratings information website", which, in this case, is kijkwijzer.nl: Quote:
Enter rating details as shown, excluding the rating itself and trailing period. e.g. "Rated R for sci-fi violence and brief language." is entered as "Sci-fi Violence and Brief Language". Obtain the rating details in order of preference from:
- DVD case, usually on the bottom rear
- Rating page displayed on-screen
- Filmratings.com, or the equivalent region-specific ratings information website | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 34 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Again: you're referring to two completely different issues. I disagree with you on both of them for completely different reasons. Tell me: what's the difference? Like I proposed: dvd rating with Videovoorlichtingssysteem can't have rating details because this system didn't work like that. Why do you keep coming with kijkwijzer.nl for dvd's that clearly have the other icons. What is your need to have this field filled with wrongful information? |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Sigh... Do we really have to keep saying the same things to each other over and over again? Okay, here we go once more - these are the two different scenarios we're dealing with:
#1 a Kijkwijzer-rated DVD with no additional rating details on the cover/on-screen.
For these, the rules specifically tell us to enter the rating details from the "region-specific ratings information website", which, for The Netherlands, is kijkwijzer.nl. Plain and simple - there's (luckily) no way out.
#2 a VideoVoorlichtingSysteem-rated DVD with no additional rating details on the cover/on-screen.
The rules don't address this at all and still send us to the "region-specific ratings information website", which is still kijkwijzer.nl. Yes, you've voiced your concerns, and I understand them, but IMHO it boils down to telling the person who's looking for rating details on such a film either "well, it seems to be rated '12', but I can't tell you why", or being able to say "it contains violence and coarse language". IMHO, the latter is much more useful. Keep in mind that at no point do you LOSE any information, nobody is replacing or substituting anything - you just gain valid, film-specific data, taken from an official source. Whereas else you'd have nothing. There is no downside, really.
Anyway - even if we disagree on #2, I really don't see how you could possibly challenge #1. You don't seem to like how Kijkwijzer works, but the fact remains that it is the "region-specific ratings information website". In these cases - certainly the vast majority falling under #1 where there's absolutely no wiggle room - it is the one and only rules-prescribed source to take the rating details from. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 34 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
#1 a Kijkwijzer-rated DVD with no additional rating details on the cover/on-screen.
For these, the rules specifically tell us to enter the rating details from the "region-specific ratings information website", which, for The Netherlands, is kijkwijzer.nl. Plain and simple - there's (luckily) no way out. As long as the actual dvd publisher has put the rating details on kijkwijzer that would be correct. But as I pointed out many times people use rating details from broadcasters. That information is meant for tv broadcast which often has a different cut. Quote:
#2 a VideoVoorlichtingSysteem-rated DVD with no additional rating details on the cover/on-screen.
The rules don't address this at all and still send us to the "region-specific ratings information website", which is still kijkwijzer.nl. Yes, you've voiced your concerns, and I understand them, but IMHO it boils down to telling the person who's looking for rating details on such a film either "well, it seems to be rated '12', but I can't tell you why", or being able to say "it contains violence and coarse language". IMHO, the latter is much more useful. Keep in mind that at no point do you LOSE any information, nobody is replacing or substituting anything - you just gain valid, film-specific data, taken from an official source. Whereas else you'd have nothing. There is no downside, really. Tell me what is so wrong about having no information? Videovoorlichtingssysteem didn't have rating details. Period. So why are you bringing rating details from kijkwijzer? You can't compare those two. | | | | Last edited: by Jeronimo |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Jeronimo: Quote:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
#1 a Kijkwijzer-rated DVD with no additional rating details on the cover/on-screen.
For these, the rules specifically tell us to enter the rating details from the "region-specific ratings information website", which, for The Netherlands, is kijkwijzer.nl. Plain and simple - there's (luckily) no way out.
As long as the actual dvd publisher has put the rating details on kijkwijzer that would be correct. But as I pointed out many times people use rating details from broadcasters. That information is meant for tv broadcast which often has a different cut. I won't reply to #2 again - you're certainly not bringing anything new to the table, and neither can I. We simply disagree. I'm much more interested in #1 now, which concerns much more profiles, including very mainstream ones released by major publishers. For these, there is NO conflict of rating systems: it's going to kijkwijzer.nl to retrieve the rating details for a kijkwijzer-rated film. Yes, you've told us how you don't like the way Kijkwijzer works, but the fact remains that it is the one and only "region-specific ratings information website", and if there are no rating details seen on the cover or on the screen, that's where the rules tell us to get the rating details. Also I'd like to stress yet again that at no point do you LOSE any information, nobody is replacing or substituting anything - you just gain valid, film-specific data, taken from the only (official!) source available to us. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 34 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Jeronimo:
Quote:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
#1 a Kijkwijzer-rated DVD with no additional rating details on the cover/on-screen.
For these, the rules specifically tell us to enter the rating details from the "region-specific ratings information website", which, for The Netherlands, is kijkwijzer.nl. Plain and simple - there's (luckily) no way out.
As long as the actual dvd publisher has put the rating details on kijkwijzer that would be correct. But as I pointed out many times people use rating details from broadcasters. That information is meant for tv broadcast which often has a different cut.
I won't reply to #2 again - you're certainly not bringing anything new to the table, and neither can I. We simply disagree. I'm much more interested in #1 now, which concerns much more profiles, including very mainstream ones released by major publishers. For these, there is NO conflict of rating systems: it's going to kijkwijzer.nl to retrieve the rating details for a kijkwijzer-rated film. Yes, you've told us how you don't like the way Kijkwijzer works, but the fact remains that it is the one and only "region-specific ratings information website", and if there are no rating details seen on the cover or on the screen, that's where the rules tell us to get the rating details. Also I'd like to stress yet again that at no point do you LOSE any information, nobody is replacing or substituting anything - you just gain valid, film-specific data, taken from the only (official!) source available to us. Taking rating details from tv-broadcast is NOT valid; those details were meant for something else than a dvd release. The data might apply for the dvd release, but we just don't know for certain. It will always be an assumption at best. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Jeronimo: Quote:
Taking rating details from tv-broadcast is NOT valid; those details were meant for something else than a dvd release. The data might apply for the dvd release, but we just don't know for certain. It will always be an assumption at best. Again, it seems to come down to your feelings about how kijkwijzer.nl operates. But it just doesn't matter. You and me both don't know exactly how kijkwijzer.nl operates: if you look up the rating details for any given title, it does indeed list the name of the supplier. But I don't know the rationale behind this: do they list the first party that submitted it? Do they list the most recent party that submitted it? If a certain title is re-submitted for DVD, but the result is the same, does the previous entry remain? Or is it constantly being updated with the last time it was rated - in which case, by your standards, today's "valid" rating details could be gone tomorrow... Today, you're willing to accept the details for "Zus & Zo" because kijkwijzer.nl lists the DVD publisher, but what if it's updated to list a TV broadcaster tomorrow? Then the rating details suddenly aren't valid anymore? The truth is: none of us knows for sure how this works. But the good thing is that it just doesn't matter. The bottom line is that kijkwijzer.nl is the the one and only "region-specific ratings information website", and the rules specifically telli us that's where we can get the rating details if there's nothing on the cover or on-screen. If I understand it correctly, this wouldn't be an issue if kijkwijzer.nl just scrapped that last supplier line from all their classifications pages? If that last line wasn't there (which is the case on several other localities' ratings websites), you'd probably have no problems with this at all. Yet here it causes you to stop entering perfectly valid rating details for stacks and stacks of DVD's?! If I'm supposed to leave the field empty - despite having a valid source - for half of my Dutch DVD's, why do we even bother with the field at all? Again: this affects large numbers of Dutch profiles - it's not a "niche" issue. I'll give an example: the three Dutch 'Beverly Hills Cop' DVD's, released by Paramount Home Entertainment. We're talking about a few rather "big" releases, from a rather respectable, eh, publisher. Each of them has a Kijkwijzer-rating-logo on the cover, but no rating details. Per the rules, I can go to kijkwijzer.nl to retrieve them, and indeed, it tells me "Violence" and "Bad Language". That is perfectly correct and appropriate, and useful to enter into DVD Profiler. Better yet: the rules explicitly tell us to do so! The fact that you're hung up over which company kijkwijzer.nl lists as supplier doesn't change that: again, you don't even know exactly what it means - the entry may have shown "Paramount" up until last week, there's no way to know. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 34 |
| | Posted: | | | | You're missing my point. Kijkwijzer - being a self-regulation mechanism - is a subjective source. To put it another way: the resselling party is rating their own product. Since they have different things to sell (tv-commercial slots or discs called dvd or even bd) they have their own standards to the rating. Although they have guidelines, it is up to those parties themselves to make the judgement.
Formerly this was done by a independent committee (Filmkeuring / Videovoorlichtingssysteem). But the reasons/aspects for rating were never published by that same committee.
Therefore I conclude we know the following for certain:
- Videovoorlichtingssyteem: age but no rating details whatsoever (those were never published);
- Kijkwijzer: age, rating details proven by icons on cover, on screen or by entry on kijkwijzer.nl when the actual dvd publisher is mentioned. I know there are movies on kijkwijzer.nl with entries for both broadcaster and dvd publisher that have different ratings. I just don't know which movies.
This also answers your question wether entries are overwritten by different parties. They're not.
The above does not reflect my feelings on kijkwijzer or whatever rating system. On the contrary: it is merely a way to find factual data on movies. | | | | Last edited: by Jeronimo |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Jeronimo: Quote:
You're missing my point. No, I'm not. It's very simple: no matter how it works, or how you feel about that, kijkwijzer.nl is our locality's one and only official "region-specific ratings information website". If there are no rating details on the cover or on the screen, that's the third acceptable source to get the rating details. Period. For the record: if there's ONE source that is entirely un-trustworthy for basically anything, including rating details, it's the cover. I agree that for consistency's sake, we have no choice but to track the rating details as shown on the cover, but I've seen dozens that are very clearly plain wrong. Generally, I've found the rating details from kijkwijzer.nl much more accurate, so personally I'm glad if there are no rating details on the cover or on the screen - at least it means I can get them from a more accurate and trustworthy source. Again: if I have in my hand a Kijkwijzer-rated DVD and there are no rating details on the cover or on the screen, I go to Kijkwijzer.nl to retrieve them. The same principle applies to every other locality. It can't be that hard to grasp... | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: July 7, 2007 | | Posts: 284 |
| | Posted: | | | | I agree with T!M on the this one: If we have a kijkwijzer rated DVD with no ratingdetails on the cover, disc or screen --> get them from kijkwijzer.nl. The argument that these may be submitted by boardcasters of the movie or TV show does not really matter.
Ofcourse there could be a problem when the rating on the DVD differs from kijkwijzer.nl (not the details, the rating itself). It should be self-evident that you cannot take the details from kijkwijzer.nl in those cases. However, I myself have never seen one of those. | | | My DVD's
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard drive? |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RaymondG: Quote:
I agree with T!M on the this one: If we have a kijkwijzer rated DVD with no ratingdetails on the cover, disc or screen --> get them from kijkwijzer.nl. The argument that these may be submitted by boardcasters of the movie or TV show does not really matter.
Ofcourse there could be a problem when the rating on the DVD differs from kijkwijzer.nl (not the details, the rating itself). It should be self-evident that you cannot take the details from kijkwijzer.nl in those cases. However, I myself have never seen one of those. I agree. If the DVD has a kijkwijzer rating, but no details and kijkwijzer.nl confirms that rating and includes the details, I think it's perfectly reasonable to use those details, and I think that's the intention of the rules too. It's still a no on using kijkwijzer details for Videovoorlichtingssyteem ratings though...  |
| | Registered: July 7, 2007 | | Posts: 284 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
Quoting RaymondG:
Quote:
I agree with T!M on the this one: If we have a kijkwijzer rated DVD with no ratingdetails on the cover, disc or screen --> get them from kijkwijzer.nl. The argument that these may be submitted by boardcasters of the movie or TV show does not really matter.
Ofcourse there could be a problem when the rating on the DVD differs from kijkwijzer.nl (not the details, the rating itself). It should be self-evident that you cannot take the details from kijkwijzer.nl in those cases. However, I myself have never seen one of those.
It's still a no on using kijkwijzer details for Videovoorlichtingssyteem ratings though... Yes, no doubt about that. | | | My DVD's
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard drive? |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 34 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RaymondG: Quote:
Quoting northbloke:
Quote:
Quoting RaymondG:
Quote:
I agree with T!M on the this one: If we have a kijkwijzer rated DVD with no ratingdetails on the cover, disc or screen --> get them from kijkwijzer.nl. The argument that these may be submitted by boardcasters of the movie or TV show does not really matter.
Ofcourse there could be a problem when the rating on the DVD differs from kijkwijzer.nl (not the details, the rating itself). It should be self-evident that you cannot take the details from kijkwijzer.nl in those cases. However, I myself have never seen one of those.
It's still a no on using kijkwijzer details for Videovoorlichtingssyteem ratings though...
Yes, no doubt about that. Then explain me why you casted a no on my contribution for The Avengers (rated according to ViVO) where I removed the kijkwijzer details. | | | | Last edited: by Jeronimo |
| | Registered: July 31, 2008 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,506 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Jeronimo: Quote:
Then explain me why you casted a no on my contribution for The Avengers (rated according to ViVO) where I removed the kijkwijzer details. I could be missing something here, but the way I'm reading that post, you wanted to replace some "bad" data with some from an invalid source, ie not one that is allowed in the rules? If so then the no vote would be correct. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 2,366 |
| | Posted: | | | | No, I think it's because both the Kijkwijzer and ViVo-system use age rating "12", but because they are different systems Jeronimo wants to remove the details. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands | | | | Last edited: by Daddy DVD |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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