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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Appears / Special Appearances By credit |
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| Author |
Message |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Just FYI the dreaded 'web-site-that-shall-not-be-named' lists several of these folks as "Extras" for the film 'Kingpin'.
If someone could find a corroborating source, that should be all the documentation required. I have not been able to locate a photo of any of them. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Just for yucks i looked Susan A, Burig and she works in the Art departmet, that is also CREW not Cast.
Paula Gregg Miscellaneous Crew, Producer, Art Department, Production Designer, hmmm more CREW
Mike Healy Editorial Department,, evn more
Jay W. Yowler Camera and Electrical Department, WOW what a surprise more Crerw
This does not preclude an appearance in the film, many time Crew members appear in films as extras.
But there simply is nothing to indicate they are anything more than CREW. BTW I selected those names at random from the list and those are the only ones I looked up.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | OK. Beth Mone, the last person in the list is listed in IMdb as an extra and in TCM.com under the heading "Cast" for the movie 'Kingpin' That should be enough for inclusion in the DVDP cast listing!  | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Add J. W. Yowler being credited at both IMdb and TCM.com the same way as Beth Mone above. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Shall I go on Skip, or are you ready to say "uncle"? | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Danielle Valenciano....same as above.
Kelsey Jordan.....same.
Mike Healy.....same, except he also has a credit for 'Projectionist' at least at TCM.com. | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'm not Skip, but I will say it...
"Uncle"
...though I don't know why I would. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | I made a specific suggestion, Hal, you know what i think of outside sources such as you list, though I certainly find TCMDb to be more reliable than IMDb. Find me one screen cap or time stamp, just ONE backing up an ON SCREEN appearance, hell I'll even take something from one of those principal's websites.
Just ONE, not all of them only one. the facts are that the data is within the crew data, not the Cast data and can't be construde any other way, despite the attempts of our kreskin imitators. JUST ONE and I'll buy in. I am amazed that I see the facts, and I made a simple suggestion, one which does not seem to be at all unreasonable given the FACTS, and it seems to be too hard for anyone to tackle, they would prefer to play mind-reading games ro intorduce information from, at least in one case, questionable second hand sources at best.You know me, Hal, and you know how much I hate second hand sources.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
I made a specific suggestion, Hal, you know what i think of outside sources such as you list, though I certainly find TCMDb to be more reliable than IMDb. Find me one screen cap or time stamp, just ONE backing up an ON SCREEN appearance, hell I'll even take something from one of those principal's websites.
Just ONE, not all of them only one. the facts are that the data is within the crew data, not the Cast data and can't be construde any other way, despite the attempts of our kreskin imitators. JUST ONE and I'll buy in. I am amazed that I see the facts, and I made a simple suggestion, one which does not seem to be at all unreasonable given the FACTS, and it seems to be too hard for anyone to tackle, they would prefer to play mind-reading games ro intorduce information from, at least in one case, questionable second hand sources at best.You know me, Hal, and you know how much I hate second hand sources.
Skip The "second-hand sources" are merely corroboration of the actual on-screen FIRST HAND source whihc states that they "Appeared". I'm not spending any more time on this....especially since I don't own the movie!  | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
....especially since I don't own the movie! I guess that is why I said 'uncle'. I don't own this film either.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | I do, but you haven't missed much. It is mildly humorous, not Woody's finest.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
You are the one advocating the feared possibility that they don't appear on-screen. Prove it. Otherwise the credits speak for themselves. Logical error!How can one possibly prove that something is not?? The only possible way to prove anything here, is to prove the on-screen-appearance (timecode + screenshot). | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 | | | | Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 810 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting goblinsdoitall: Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
You are the one advocating the feared possibility that they don't appear on-screen. Prove it. Otherwise the credits speak for themselves.
Logical error!
How can one possibly prove that something is not??
The only possible way to prove anything here, is to prove the on-screen-appearance (timecode + screenshot). But, if we need to add a "timecode + screenshot" for each person that is listed in the credits, as they are here, very few profiles would have cast lists. And none of them would have crew! We have a need to profile films and tv shows that come from all over the world. There is no standard format for credits, at best you could say there are "guidelines", but they are often not followed. Some films list all the extras, some don't even list all the stars! The process of entering cast (and crew) should not be made so hard that it can't be done. pdf | | | Paul Francis
San Juan Capistrano, CA, USA |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting goblinsdoitall: Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
You are the one advocating the feared possibility that they don't appear on-screen. Prove it. Otherwise the credits speak for themselves.
Logical error!
How can one possibly prove that something is not??
The only possible way to prove anything here, is to prove the on-screen-appearance (timecode + screenshot). My point was that the responsibility is his (and yours) to show that these are not cast credits. Taken at face value from what appears on-screen, they are cast credits. If you want to put additional requirements on them so that they're excluded, provide some evidence as to why they should be excluded. Otherwise, they are cast credits like any other. Additionally, we include cast credits even if the people are not in the film (eg. Clive Revill in Star Wars). The credits are what the credits are. Time codes and screenshots are not required to document that credits are correct. We record them even if there are errors in the credits! No one has produced any evidence that a crew member has ever been credited as "special appearance by" other than the music credits noted by Unicus. So if you want to say that these cast credits are not cast credits, offer some proof. It's not a logical error on my part. If you want them out, prove your point with something other than the fact that there are separate cast lists in these credits. Check out Around the World in 80 Days (1956) for what I recall are credits which alternate between cast and crew throughout the entire end credits! I believe that the credits for Ready to Wear (Prêt-à-Porter) (1994) are also similar to Kinpin in that the special appearance credits are separate from the rest of the cast (eg. there's a list of designers who appeared with their collections). | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
Otherwise, they are cast credits like any other. That's exactly the problem, they are not credited as cast, they are credited within the crew-section, and a simple Google check gave the result that most of them usually are crew members of all sorts (some simply gave no results). If they would be credited as "special appearance" within the cast section I wouldn't even dream of not entering them. EDIT: If I would follow your argument I could also credit the "First Assistant Director" XY from the crew credits as a castmember because he might be visible on screen for a second somewhere. It would be very hard for you to prove the opposite. So all I'm asking is that if you want to interprete a "crew-credit" as "cast-credit" that there should be some valid documentation of any kind. If there is none I'll stay with "Crew" because that's where they are credited. And to deduce an "on-screen"-appearance from the word "appearance" is another logical error, I personally can appear at my office, but that doesn't put me on-screen. And if I would be 30 minutes early (which would be quite unusual for me), my boss would most certainly call this a "special-appearance", but I'm still not to be seen on any screen. True: this example is very far fetched, it's just to show that maybe these credits are really what they say they are. Crew credits! And that's simply because there are innumerous reasons why these people might have a special appearance of any kind. The reversal of the burden of proof is to be rejected. It's you who wants to enter a non standard credit so it's up to you to prove the correctness. | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 | | | | Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting goblinsdoitall: Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
Otherwise, they are cast credits like any other.
That's exactly the problem, they are not credited as cast, they are credited within the crew-section, and a simple Google check gave the result that most of them usually are crew members of all sorts (some simply gave no results).
If they would be credited as "special appearance" within the cast section I wouldn't even dream of not entering them. The location of the credits does not make them crew. The fact that the credit is "special appearances by" is a visual credit by definition. They're on-screen. This credit is used for people who appear on-screen. It's not been shown by anyone here that this credit has ever been used for a crew member in any film. Ever. Quote:
EDIT: If I would follow your argument I could also credit the "First Assistant Director" XY from the crew credits as a castmember because he might be visible on screen for a second somewhere. It would be very hard for you to prove the opposite.
So all I'm asking is that if you want to interprete a "crew-credit" as "cast-credit" that there should be some valid documentation of any kind. If there is none I'll stay with "Crew" because that's where they are credited.
And to deduce an "on-screen"-appearance from the word "appearance" is another logical error, I personally can appear at my office, but that doesn't put me on-screen. And if I would be 30 minutes early (which would be quite unusual for me), my boss would most certainly call this a "special-appearance", but I'm still not to be seen on any screen.
True: this example is very far fetched, it's just to show that maybe these credits are really what they say they are. Crew credits! And that's simply because there are innumerous reasons why these people might have a special appearance of any kind.
The reversal of the burden of proof is to be rejected. It's you who wants to enter a non standard credit so it's up to you to prove the correctness. No. That does not follow my argument. "First Assistant Director" is a crew credit. There are not innumerous reasons why these people might be credited as special appearance. There's one: on-screen. If you can show that "special appearances by" (not to be confused with "appears courtesy of") has ever been used for anything other than an on-screen credit, you might have something to argue. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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