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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Theme by & Additonal Music |
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| Author |
Message |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
I'm still fairly dumbstruck by the way some people deal with this: taking turns in declaring their own personal definitions of what "themes", "songs" and "theme songs" are. That's all very nice, but it really doesn't matter and more importantly: it doesn't get us one step further.
The key issue remains that people WILL track these one way or another, simply because the contribution of the theme writer is usually pretty significant - and often, their credit is, too. Knowing that, I thought it would be best to settle on a uniform way of doing so, instead of everyone just working from his own personal preference. I've outlined the best way to handle this within the constraints of the current set-up: "composer" remains reserved for the actual composer of the score, and any other original piece of music (whether it's accompanied by lyrics or not) gets a "song writer" credit. It's simple, and it works: it retains the meaning of the "composer" credit, yet it lets us track the significant input of other musical contributors, while keeping them clearly separated from each other.
Now that may not match with some of your definitions, but it's the only way we can track this stuff within the constraints of the program at this point. I think they should be left out until we get a "Theme By" credit. | | | | Hal |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
I think they should be left out until we get a "Theme By" credit. That would work, too, but I'm afraid people just won't do that. I know I don't, and I've seen several of the participants in this thread contribute theme writers as well (using both credit types, I might add). Remember that only a very small percentage of the users actually reads the forums, and, again, that both the contribution and the on-screen credit of a theme writer is usually pretty significant. Users are bound to enter them one way or another - an quick glance through the database confirms as much. Note that out of 8ballmax's 'Stargate: Continuum' example, only 2 out of 15 voters voted against the use of a "composer" credit - even though it's clearly not allowed per the rules. It's clear that people want to / will track theme writers, whether it's the best thing to do or not. As for a "theme by" credit - there has never been any kind of hint from Ken that we would get it, even though the issue has been discussed many, many times before. Waiting for something that we know is coming is one thing, but waiting for something that may never come is something else altogether. I'd like a "theme by" credit very much, but I'll repeat that I feel Ken could also effortlessly settle this matter by simply declaring that for DVD Profiler purposes, instrumental themes should indeed be considered "songs". That's all we need to be able to work with this within the software as it is today. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | I would argue that "Costume Designer" is also a "significant" credit, but I would not support shoehorning it into "Art Director" or "Production Designer".
"Theme By" is no different. The fact that people are doing it is not a good reason to legitimize it. The Rules should include it in the list of "bad" credits for "Composer" and for "Songwriter" until such time as a "Theme By" credit can be added.
I feel the same way about shoehorning any credit into a category that it does not match!
People can do whatever they wish locally, but they should not be contributed to the main database. | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | I understand that, but although using "composer" for this is clearly prohibited by the rules, using "song writer" is not.
The latter is what I'm doing, and I don't consider that to be "shoehorning" at all. Again: using "song writer" for this is not prohibited by the rules and I also honestly feel that an instrumental theme is a song. So what happens is: I see a credit for an original song, and I reward it with a "song writer" credit' - just like the rules tell me to do. With that, I feel I'm following the rules to the letter. And again: it simply WORKS. It retains the meaning of the "composer" credit, yet it lets me track the significant input of other musical contributors, while keeping both parties clearly separated from each other.
It really is that simple, and I urge everyone to adopt this strategy. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
I understand that, but although using "composer" for this is clearly prohibited by the rules, using "song writer" is not. But the on screen credit is "Theme By" - not "Song", "Song By" or "Song Writer", so it is shoehorning a credit into a category where it does not belong....IMHO. | | | | Hal |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
But the on screen credit is "Theme By" - not "Song", "Song By" or "Song Writer", so it is shoehorning a credit into a category where it does not belong....IMHO. No, it's not. The crew credits table for "song writer" doesn't even list the alledgedly accepted job descriptions you're naming here. It just tells us to use the "song writer" credit for original song writers, nothing more. And that's what I'm doing. Since I honestly feel that themes are songs, I have absolutely no problem applying the rules: I look at the screen, see a credit for an original song, and enter it as "song writer". No shoehorning whatsoever; I'm just following the rules. And - I hate to keep repeating myself, but I will anyway - not only do I feel I'm following the rules, but I've achieved exactly what most of us want to achieve: I'm able to track both the composer of the score and other musical contributors, while maintaining a clear separation between the two. There really aren't any drawbacks... | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Except that, as pointed out earlier, "Theme By" is not necessarily "an original song specifically for that film" when it comes to TV Series.
The Rules need to be clarified...until then I'd leave them out. | | | | Hal |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Except that, as pointed out earlier, "Theme By" is not necessarily "an original song specifically for that film" when it comes to TV Series. Right, but it's "an original song specifically for that series". If I'm not mistaken, there's a forum consensus agreeing that we regard it as "original" for the entire run of the series. The same goes for movie franchises: theoretically, one could argue that Monty Norman's 'James Bond Theme' is only truly original for 'Dr. No' and should not be listed for all subsequent movies. Yet, he's credited for it in all subsequent films, and he's listed in about 500 Bond-profiles, and that's how it should be. Quote:
The Rules need to be clarified... On that I fully agree, of course. I've engaged in this same debate several times over the past year, and I'm getting pretty tired of it. All Ken needs to do is confirm that for DVD Profiler purposes, we should indeed use the "song writer" credit for instrumental themes, and we're good to go. That's easy to do, and it'll help enormously. Of course he can also make entirely different or further clarifications, or even go so far as to expand the crew section, but even just the one confirmation will do. I'll gladly take anything, but it's painfully obvious that SOME kind of input is badly needed. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
I'm still fairly dumbstruck by the way some people deal with this: taking turns in declaring their own personal definitions of what "themes", "songs" and "theme songs" are. That's all very nice, but it really doesn't matter and more importantly: it doesn't get us one step further. I have yet to delcare my own personal definition of what anything is. My 'definitions' come straight from m-w.com. I don't know how it is in the Netherlands, but Webster's Dictionary is fairly reliable here in the states.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Posts: 366 |
| | Posted: | | | | Like Unicus, I was using a dictionary source. And also a music theory source. No personal definitions involved.
In fact, I had looked through multiple dictionaries and music composition definition sites looking for a concensus before I made my posts. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 1,414 |
| | Posted: | | | | A theme is music, and it has a composer. Therefore it seems quite straightforward that it should get a composer credit. Claiming the rules prohibit that but allow a song writer credit for a theme is just making things up. | | | | "This movie has warped my fragile little mind." |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting gardibolt: Quote:
A theme is music, and it has a composer. Therefore it seems quite straightforward that it should get a composer credit. Claiming the rules prohibit that but allow a song writer credit for a theme is just making things up. What about this part of the Rules for "Composer": "Used for the composer of the film's Original Score". The "Theme" is not the "film's original score". Or this part which lists the "Acceptable" credits for Composer: Music by Music Composed by Score by Score Composed by If you want to ignore those two parts of the Rules, then yes, I guess you could give "Theme By" a "Composer" credit!  | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | You are stretching, hal. What part of ANY James Bond do you not understand, my friend. Excepting Never Say never and the two original Casino Royale's, is there a SINGLE film that does not incorporate Monty Norman's guitar as part of the ORIGINAL score for that film. Similarly with star trek and both Courage and Goldsmith's respective themes, they are incorporated into the ORIGINAL score for that film. As I have said previously it's not James Bond without Monty Norman, nor is it Star Trek without Courage and Goldsmith. Hal, you are old enough to remember when TV shows when into syndication while they were still airing in first run and part of the requirement was that the title music had to be changed and sometimes even the title itself. The Andy Griffith show just isn't the same without Earle hagen's opening or The Beverly Hillbillies without Flat & Scruggs. Skip  | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Being "part of the ORIGINAL score" and being the person who wrote the ORIGINAL score are two different things.
I am all for giving credit for "Theme By", but it must be distinguished from both "Composer" and Songwriter". They are all different! | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Posts: 366 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'm all for a separate new theme credit to be added. Most of the time that a theme is credited separately it is because it was originally written for another work by a different composer and is being integrated/reused for continuity purposes. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Agreed on all counts, joe.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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