Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
Yes it does, gerri.

As unicus said this is about PERSONAL preference which when I laid the foundation  I did NOT allow for, deliberately. We had enough trouble with that back in the days of the guidelines. What I setup was strictly based upon the DATA as it apperaed On screen. Presenting diacriticals is not a problem of any sort for Hollywood. As I have noted, EVERYONE who works on a film has a contract and that contract dictates how François is to be credited, if he is fine with FRANCOIS or Francois, we are too. It is not about inventing data which does not appear on screen, it is about the ACTUAL data which appears On screen.

(...)

I know what you are saying and I am sure that is how it is supposed to work in principle.  Whether or not that acutally works in practice is a different story.

As I said, I have seen credits where the same actor's name is spelled two different ways...one way in the opening and a different way in the closing.  I have a hard time believing it was meant to be that way per a clause in the contract.

My guess...and it is just a guess as I neglected to ask this question when I did my VIP tour of the Universal back lot...is that the credits are entered by a data entry clerk who has been given a list of names and a format by which they are to be entered.  By that I mean, they are told which font to use, what size and color and if they are to be entered in all caps, all lower case, mixed case, all caps for names and all lower case for roles, all caps for names and mixed case for roles, etc., etc..

Note:  Before anybody askes, no it wasn't the same tram tour that every tourist can take.  This was an actuall VIP tour where we were allowed to walk around the back lot, several sound stages, the prop warehouse, etc.  I have some very nice pictures on the 'Crossing Jordan' set and of Jerry O'Connell...he was late for 'location' scene or I would have gotten a better one.  What was really fun, was waving at the tourists in the tram while they took our pictures and tried to figure out who we were. 

Quoting northbloke:

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Quoting Unicus69:

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I was going by the fact that, or so I have been told, it is no longer a strict rule that it must be written that way.  From what I have heard, it can be written as 'FRANÇOIS', if the person writing it wants to do it that way.  So, for older films it was a rule, for newere films it is a choice.  If I am mistaken, then, nevermind. 

No, that's exactly how I see it too. So it's possible this will become less and less of a problem as more films are released with accents intact. My apologies, I was looking at it from the point of view of all the films where it would have been much stricter.

If it is no longer stricture, as both you and Unicus describe it, North, Then WHY are you making a Contribution with just such a change. "If a person wants it that way"...that is PREFERENCE and it affects EVEY user via Contribution. If it really is as it was written by Unicus and endorsed by you, then you keep it local because that is the way YOU want it to be.

Skip

If you'd read the posts properly you'd know that we're talking about a recent change in the way the French write their capital letters. At the time The Name of the Rose was made, this was still a strict rule in the French language.

What are you on about now? Gerri has clearly stated in the other thread that you submit what you know. If someone else who knows more comes along and fixes it later, fine - no problem. Don't make it sound like it will be a huge stumbling block.

Quoting Unicus69:

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Quoting skipnet50:

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Yes it does, gerri.

As unicus said this is about PERSONAL preference which when I laid the foundation  I did NOT allow for, deliberately. We had enough trouble with that back in the days of the guidelines. What I setup was strictly based upon the DATA as it apperaed On screen. Presenting diacriticals is not a problem of any sort for Hollywood. As I have noted, EVERYONE who works on a film has a contract and that contract dictates how François is to be credited, if he is fine with FRANCOIS or Francois, we are too. It is not about inventing data which does not appear on screen, it is about the ACTUAL data which appears On screen.

(...)

I know what you are saying and I am sure that is how it is supposed to work in principle.  Whether or not that acutally works in practice is a different story.

As I said, I have seen credits where the same actor's name is spelled two different ways...one way in the opening and a different way in the closing.  I have a hard time believing it was meant to be that way per a clause in the contract.

My guess...and it is just a guess as I neglected to ask this question when I did my VIP tour of the Universal back lot...is that the credits are entered by a data entry clerk who has been given a list of names and a format by which they are to be entered.  By that I mean, they are told which font to use, what size and color and if they are to be entered in all caps, all lower case, mixed case, all caps for names and all lower case for roles, all caps for names and mixed case for roles, etc., etc..

Note:  Before anybody askes, no it wasn't the same tram tour that every tourist can take.  This was an actuall VIP tour where we were allowed to walk around the back lot, several sound stages, the prop warehouse, etc.  I have some very nice pictures on the 'Crossing Jordan' set and of Jerry O'Connell...he was late for 'location' scene or I would have gotten a better one.  What was really fun, was waving at the tourists in the tram while they took our pictures and tried to figure out who we were. 

Unicus:

I have several thousand edited titles under my belt, I think I know whether it works in practice or not and it absolutely does. This really about users, not paying attention to the data itself, they simply to break the foundation that was laid and impose their culture upon everybody. Yes, their Contributions do affect everybody, that is why I voted NO to north, his change affects the fundamentals of the database.

You can spit and fuss (pardonez mois) all you want over what you think it means and how to interpret but you can't tell the man that laid the foundation that he doesn't know what. To give you just a little bit of history, the Original draft that was done by Dan W and myself was 57 pages and we agreed it needed to be shortened. With the help of the assembled writing team we managed to pare it down by about 30 pages or so. Clearly things got lost in translation that none of us, myself included, believed would become problems, it is clear we should have stayed with the original draft.

I have said this many times, were the shoe on any other users, I would not be constantly insulting him, telling him such things as Unicus tells me about intent (which makes me see red big time) and generally being combative and argumentative. Let's say it was North's foot, I might be asking questions of him to try and understand what he was thinking, but I would absolutely not ever deal with him in the manner that i have been dealt with, let alone try and make him believe that I knew more abouty the rules than he did when he developed them. You wonder why I get a bit testy.

I can only pray that Gerri reverses this and puts it back to the design intent of exactly as you see it on the screen because the inroduction of invented data that is NOT present On Screen is a path towards being just as inaccurate and in my view irrelevant as some other databases. There are ways to achieve the desires of the culturalists and I am all for it, but NOT at the expense of the foundation.

Skip

Quoting Unicus69:

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Quoting skipnet50:

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If it is no longer stricture, as both you and Unicus describe it, North, Then WHY are you making a Contribution with just such a change. "If a person wants it that way"...that is PREFERENCE and it affects EVEY user via Contribution. If it really is as it was written by Unicus and endorsed by you, then you keep it local because that is the way YOU want it to be.

Skip

My guess is, and it is only a guess, because it is a choice that the person who entered the credit made and may not reflect the proper choice made by the actor.

As an example...

Let's say an actor named 'François Bonapart Smith' has a clause in his contract stating he will be credited as 'François Smith'.  His name, along with all the other actors, is given to the person who is creating the credit roll.  The only instructions given are, 'enter these names in all caps'.

Depending on that hat persons knowledge, there are two ways this can be entered.  As 'FRANCOIS SMITH' or as 'FRANÇOIS SMITH'.  If that person doesn't know he can use the latter, or isn't aware that the letter 'Ç' exists, he will enter the former.

The fact that he entered 'FRANCOIS SMITH' doesn't mean the lower case version is 'Francois Smith'.  In this example, the lower case version would be 'François Smith'.

Does that make sense or have I just confused things more? 

You are muddying the water. Deal ONLY with what you see On Screen. I have said that if you have too competing pieces of data within the same film, I could be prevailed upon to accept the cultural version. The first thing that comes to mind is two things, unicus, show me the contract (which none of us can do) and what makes you think that a data entry clerk (I know quite a few, and this is a real leap )would KNOW that if you cap François, it COULD be FRANCOIS.

Note also that I am NOT referring to Cover Credits at all, ONLY film credits that are On Screen, simply because we have to have a baseline somewhere, not look here, look there and look somewhere else.

Me too, Doc 

Skip

North: Please for oncve listen to me. that decision was made for CONSITENCY and esthetics

Data can be JOE, joe, or JOe, it was simply decided to keep the appearance consistent, it does NOT change anything. Once again you are not arguing from a data viewpoint, you are arguing from a cultural one.

And what you do locally i don't care, but we MUST have consistency for contributions, because what you do affects everyone else in the world. We need one page as i have said before, not one for France and one for Germany and one for somebody else, oh I better not forget bone for my neighbor Jack. One page Again I am presenting a compromises tio give what you want to do, and you keep saying No it HAS to be YOUR way.

Skip

As I said, if we were dealing with pure data we'd keep it all upper-case.
Once you start to change that data, you have to tell people how to change that data in a consistent manner - with that I agree.
Big problem though - YOU DIDN'T. The rules only told us to use "standard capitalisation rules", but you never said whose rules. So we ended up with a database in a big mess.
So now Gerri clarified - we use the standard capitalisation rules according to the nationality of the person involved. We now have consistency, we now have a way to tie the database together coherently.