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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,436 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote: I would only enter John//Smith, id est the name on screen entered in the appropriate name fields ("Smith" in the Last name field, and so on),
not John//Smith credited as Smith John. EDIT: The latter, by the way, would be conflicting with the CLT system. What's the conflict? If there is a conflict, it would probably mean that he actually is credited Smith John more often and it would rightfully become his common name. If he is only credited as such once, then it's the odd one out and no harm is done. Hmmm, although, admittedly a few people towards the end of the end credits could indeed suffer from that... | | | Achim [諾亞信; Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan. Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative) |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 767 |
| Posted: | | | | I've contributed quite a few titles with this explanation in the notes. Quote: There are simple rules to decipher first and last names: * If a non-Asian first name is listed first, then that goes in the first name field. The rest in the last name field. Ie "Simon/Yam" and "Tony/Leung Ka Fai".
* When the name has two Asian words, the first word is the family name, so it goes in the last name field. Ie Lam Suet -> Suet Lam.
* When the name has three Asian words, the first word goes in the last name field, the second word in the first and the third word goes into the middle name field. Ie "Lam Ka Tung" -> Ka/Tung/Lam.
However, I did crossreference with the credit lookup, to see if there are commonly used names. Most of them are written with a hyphen between the first and middle name. So far, every one has been accepted. Yes, it takes some time to get the cast right, but it pays off in the end. Stop arguing and get to it! |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Marcel:
If you are contributing other than AS Credited, you can count on those being corrected eventually. Lam Suet should appear as Lam Suet PERIOD, etc.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
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Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,807 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting ya_shin: Quote: Quoting EnryWiki:
Quote: I would only enter John//Smith, id est the name on screen entered in the appropriate name fields ("Smith" in the Last name field, and so on),
not John//Smith credited as Smith John. EDIT: The latter, by the way, would be conflicting with the CLT system. What's the conflict?
If there is a conflict, it would probably mean that he actually is credited Smith John more often and it would rightfully become his common name.
If he is only credited as such once, then it's the odd one out and no harm is done.
CommonName = MostFrequent (CreditedNames) | | | -- Enry |
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Registered: December 10, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,004 |
| Posted: | | | | Chow Yun-Fat is clear ewnough as that is the traditional Asian order of names and how he's been creditted in most of his Western movies as well. Gong Li is the same way. I don't think changing the fields to family and given would help as this would just be another point that's difficult to research for obscure actors. Regardless, under the current rules, I think these are pretty clear, but there could be ambiguity on Asian actors like Jet Li who are creditted differently in Eastern and Western movies. |
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Registered: March 15, 2007 | Posts: 14 |
| Posted: | | | | I think a lot of confusion would be avoided if there was only one entry for names of people instead of three (First, Middle, Last). |
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Registered: May 22, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,033 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Theo B: Quote: I think a lot of confusion would be avoided if there was only one entry for names of people instead of three (First, Middle, Last). this would still cause additional problems. The main problem I see would then be you couldn't sort the actors/crew members by last name. Do we now add a sort name to actors? Additionaly, in a pseudo-devils advocate. I keep seeing people equate first name to given name and last name to family name. I see no where in the rules does it say this. so technically, its just an assumption that by first/last name Ken meant given/family name and not first name = everything up to the first space last name = everything after the last space middle name = everything between first and last name if taken that way then there is no cultural influence to first/middle/last name. (though you could possibly still debate names like 'John Joe Henry Smith' since its four names with 3 fields depending on how middle name is defined) -Agrare |
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Registered: March 19, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,018 |
| Posted: | | | | True, of course. The thing is: as long as we use first name / last name as credited, we can't sort by family name if your collection holds both Western and Asian names... | | | Last edited: by dee1959jay |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 767 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote: Marcel:
If you are contributing other than AS Credited, you can count on those being corrected eventually. Lam Suet should appear as Lam Suet PERIOD, etc.
Skip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_name Nope. Lam is his family name. You seem to be quite the expert on Asian names, Skip. Just how many Asian movies do you have in your collection? Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote: ...but there could be ambiguity on Asian actors like Jet Li who are creditted differently in Eastern and Western movies... Jet Li is an Westernized name. His birthname is Li Lianjie. So my first 'rule' still applies: If a non-Asian first name is listed first, then that goes in the first name field. The rest in the last name field. Ie "Simon/Yam" and "Tony/Leung Ka Fai". | | | Last edited: by marcelb7 |
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Registered: April 7, 2007 | Posts: 357 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting marcelb7: Quote:
Nope. Lam is his family name. You seem to be quite the expert on Asian names, Skip. Just how many Asian movies do you have in your collection? If we had a field for family name we would be good to go. It's first name last name at the moment. Parsing doesn't worry me now we have as credited. | | | Last edited: by Graveworm |
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Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,807 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Agrare: Quote:
Additionaly, in a pseudo-devils advocate. I keep seeing people equate first name to given name and last name to family name. I see no where in the rules does it say this. so technically, its just an assumption that by first/last name Ken meant given/family name and not It's an assumption based on the common meaning of those words in English. http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=last%20name " last name" S: (n) surname, family name, cognomen, last name (the name used to identify the members of a family (as distinguished from each member's given name)) | | | -- Enry |
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Registered: March 15, 2007 | Posts: 374 |
| Posted: | | | | The resuly clearly shows the need of Ken to step in and decide.
Let me try to wrap up the outcome of this poll:
44% think we should purely use as credited for chinese names. The decicive question for me is, if from a data consistancy point of view we can live with having western first name in the 'first name' field while for chinese we have their family name in the 'first name' field. If we do this consistantly also the linking should work.
14% thought we should reverse the chinese name so the the field are filled by their meaning (?) in the database. I think it should not be done like this since it contradicts our 'as credited rule.
42% voted for a combination of the a.m 2 solutions using the as credited feature to fill the database correctly and at the same time apply the as credited rule. I personally think this is the most accurate solution but am still not in favour for it since it means a double entry for every chinese name.
Somebody once brought up the idea to have a tickbox for the name 'reverse order'. That might be a solution...
At the moment any vote on name changes regarding chinese names is justified since there is NO clear rule and the community has ver diverted ideas about how this should be handled.
KEN, please take over ! | | | Last edited: by sugarjoe |
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Registered: March 15, 2007 | Posts: 374 |
| Posted: | | | | Nothing has happened in the meantime... I am currently having a discussion with a user who changes the AS CREDITED data of a chinese movie to the reverse order, e.g. changing Gong Li to Li Gong. I still feel we need clearify the rules here... | | | Last edited: by sugarjoe |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 3,830 |
| Posted: | | | | you're keeping it vague! If it is a Western Styled credit then it is as credited: Gong Li. | | | Sources for one or more of the changes and/or additions were not submitted. Please include the sources for your changes in the contribution notes, especially for cast and crew additions. | | | Last edited: by ? |
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Registered: March 15, 2007 | Posts: 374 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Giga Wizard: Quote: you're keeping it vague! If it is a Western Styled credit then it is as credited: Gong Li. Why would it have anything to do with the style of the credits? | | | Last edited: by sugarjoe |
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Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,807 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting sugarjoe: Quote:
14% thought we should reverse the chinese name so the the field are filled by their meaning (?) in the database. I think it should not be done like this since it contradicts our 'as credited rule. I take Last Name to mean Family Name, as in its usual meaning in the English language (even when it refers to Eastern names). Therefore, if the credits read "Fonda Henry", "Gong Li", etc., I guess we are allowed to enter First Name=Henry , Li, ... and Last Name=Fonda, Gong, ... That way, we enter their Names as credited on screen, but placing them into the correct fields (Henry and Li are First Name, Fonda and Gong are Last Names). However, a clarification by the Powers That Be would be most welcome and I would settle for any solution Ken wants, as long as there is a clear rule. | | | -- Enry | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
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