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  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
That is simply because you don't understand what I say half the time, Tim. That may very well be true - I admit that I (again?) don't have a clue what you meant with this post. I'm really trying, though. Quote:
And BTW that consensus was designed expressly to make a different stylistic choice from IMDb, so that there could no questions about that particular piece of data. That I understand, but the opposite is happening: the current system forces us to propagate the incorrect IMDb-formatted-comma-less variant through the database. I would really like Ken to confirm that we indeed have a standard (or "stylistic choice") for entering suffixed names. That's all I'm asking for. Such a confirmation, preferably through a quick addition to the rules, would get everybody on the same page in an instant. |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Tim, on this i agree with you and this has been a sore subject with me for a long time. While i defend Ken, and have complete faith in him, I wish he would move quicker on Rules mods. How many do we have right now that could be made..it's more than just a few.  But at the same time, i don't want him to trapped in a never-ending Rule editing process, I want MORE program. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
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| Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | I am for consistency of data.
If we actually have a consensus on a stylistic choice for linking names (that doesn't change the name itself, only the comma between the name and the Jr/Sr suffix), and if such contributions do get approved (and contribution notes explain what has been done), I agree with Skip that that is the way to go. | | | | -- Enry | | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | What you all seem to be forgetting is that both the Rules and Ken's latest statement on the subject go against any stylization what so ever... so until that changes (if he ever decides to change it) this is something that can not be done... and will definitely get a no vote from me. | | | | Pete |
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| Registered: March 24, 2007 | | Posts: 179 |
| | Posted: | | | | Personally for me I keep coming back to the idea this is not movie profiler but DVD Profiler. I kind of think we collect too much information anyway. While cast and crew information is nice. In 6 plus tyears of using DVD Profiler I have never used it to look up a cast or crew member in a movie. I know then the question becomes where to stop with eliminating data but if data were eliminated and streamlined and some eliminated we could move to a perfect database a lot faster. Just an opinion. | | | | Brian |
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| T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
What you all seem to be forgetting is that both the Rules and Ken's latest statement on the subject go against any stylization what so ever... so until that changes (if he ever decides to change it) this is something that can not be done... and will definitely get a no vote from me. And this illustrates the problem quite nicely. A huge majority of the userbase is for consistency in this department - each and every poll on the subject has indicated as much. Votes on profile updates show the same trend. But due to a few conflicting posts from Ken, there's always one or two people who'll oppose "as credited" names in the "John Doe, Jr." format, claiming the lookup tool results demand a "John Doe Jr." common name. Even though this not based on actual credits, but on the IMDb-formatted-comma-less variant which makes up such a large bulk of our database. I'm not saying Pete is doing anything wrong, but a small confirmation from Ken that we indeed have our own "stylistic choice" for formatting suffixed names would truly be a giant leap forward. |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | As I said before... this has come up before... even before Ken's most recent post and to this point he still says to use the look-up tool... when to use it... and to use what the look-up tool shows most common.
He gave an out to provide documented proof that it is wrong... and also said the best way to fix this problem is to get the cast/crew lists fixed per credits to fix the look-up tool.
He never once even hinted at anything other then this.
If he was to change his mind and post otherwise I would follow it whole-heartedly... without looking back or have any second thought on the matter. But until then I have to go 100% with what he has said to this point. | | | | Pete |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting BYATES1: Quote:
Personally for me I keep coming back to the idea this is not movie profiler but DVD Profiler. I kind of think we collect too much information anyway. While cast and crew information is nice. In 6 plus tyears of using DVD Profiler I have never used it to look up a cast or crew member in a movie. I know then the question becomes where to stop with eliminating data but if data were eliminated and streamlined and some eliminated we could move to a perfect database a lot faster. Just an opinion. Except some of us DO use and want that data and MORE. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
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| T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
He gave an out to provide documented proof that it is wrong... and also said the best way to fix this problem is to get the cast/crew lists fixed per credits to fix the look-up tool. I'll have to repeat once again: this strange line of reasoning leads to quite a few users doing these updates locally only, instead of contributing them. You cannot possibly ask users to document the incorrectness of the lookup tool for each and every suffixed name out there!? There just aren't more than five users that will keep taking the trouble to do so time and time again. Updates correcting IMDb-data to "as credited" should be welcomed instead of being voted against. Again: this line of reasoning system forces us to propagate the incorrect IMDb-formatted-comma-less variant through the database, while most of us know full well that's it's wrong. I simply cannot understand how Ken would support that. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | but yet that is all he gave us to work with as of yet... so we have what we have. I can only go by what he requested. The way I see it... the online database belongs to him... so we have to do it as HE says... no excuse for doing anything else. I may or may not agree with it... but as long as I am going to contribute/vote on his online database it will be by his rules/wishes only.
There is many rules I disagree with. But that don't give me the right to contribute what I prefer instead of what he has said. This rule is no different then any other one. | | | | Pete |
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| Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
What you all seem to be forgetting is that both the Rules and Ken's latest statement on the subject go against any stylization what so ever... so until that changes (if he ever decides to change it) this is something that can not be done... and will definitely get a no vote from me. But one could argue that punctuation attains to stylistic choices, just like italics or bold formatting, not to name spelling itself.  | | | | -- Enry | | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | As the rules says... cast/crew list must be exactly as credited... so that would include puntuation, accents or anything else. | | | | Pete |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | As Pete will no doubt tell you, Enry. As Credited means exactly what it says, now when we move into the world of the Alias (Credited As system) that's something different. If AS CREDITED is not done correctly Credited As can never work, in As Credited the ONLY stylistic choices are those chosen by the filmmakers.
One can attempt to argue whatever one might wish, Enry.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
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| Registered: May 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
As Pete will no doubt tell you, Enry. As Credited means exactly what it says, now when we move into the world of the Alias (Credited As system) that's something different. If AS CREDITED is not done correctly Credited As can never work, in As Credited the ONLY stylistic choices are those chosen by the filmmakers.
One can attempt to argue whatever one might wish, Enry.
Skip Yepp, and the database stays as it is. One and the same actor in 6 variants. Or two actors mixed up as one. Hooray. I'm glad we sorted this out ... again.  | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 |
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| Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
As Pete will no doubt tell you, Enry. As Credited means exactly what it says, now when we move into the world of the Alias (Credited As system) that's something different. If AS CREDITED is not done correctly Credited As can never work, in As Credited the ONLY stylistic choices are those chosen by the filmmakers.
Skip, I think we are saying the same thing, aren't we? We want DVDP credits as close as possible to the actual film credits, right? But, at the same time, we are saying let's standardize the punctuation in the linking names, as -I say- punctuation doesn't help distinguish different names, but it is just a stylistic choice. That would formally go against Ken's rule to just use the Lookup Tool, but -I say- one could justify that exception with the fact that the ", Jr./Sr." standardization doesn't affect the name, just the punctuation with it, and makes the Alias system a lot easier and more practical, without losing anything in the actual Credits. | | | | -- Enry |
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| T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
Skip, I think we are saying the same thing, aren't we?
We want DVDP credits as close as possible to the actual film credits, right? But, at the same time, we are saying let's standardize the punctuation in the linking names, as -I say- punctuation doesn't help distinguish different names, but it is just a stylistic choice.
That would formally go against Ken's rule to just use the Lookup Tool, but -I say- one could justify that exception with the fact that the ", Jr./Sr." standardization doesn't affect the name, just the punctuation with it, and makes the Alias system a lot easier and more practical, without losing anything in the actual Credits. I'm still not entirely sure how Skip feels on the matter, but I certainly agree with that!! | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
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