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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Poll: Margin Call part of the title? |
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| Author |
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  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting ninso4: Quote:
The rules allow us to interpret them. No, they don't. There are times that I'd like that, sure, but you can't build a consistent and internationally shared database that way. If the rule says X, you can't just say: "I'm going to interpret that as Y" and demand that your opinion is equally valid. That simply doesn't work, and would render the rules essentially meaningless. The bottom line, for me, is that it all goes horribly wrong when people start saying things like: "as you can see in German advertising or the website of the German rating board". That all sounds lovely, but our contribution rules don't say to fill the title field with information provided by German advertising or from the German rating board. Instead, our contribution rules say: "If the title appears in multiple languages, use the title that matches the language of the locality and do not include an alternate title (for instance in another language)." To me, that handles every case without any problems, so that's where it ends for me - meaning I don't have to worry about "German advertising" or whatever else... We've seen users resort to this line of reasoning in other areas as well: our contribution rules say that 'Dances With Wolves' capitalises 'With', and then we get users saying: yeah, well, but the cover/IMDb/Wikipedia/the DVD distributor/the ratings board say that it's 'Dances with Wolves', without the capital W. The answer is the same: it doesn't matter. Here at DVD Profiler, it doesn't matter what any of those sources, including German advertising or the German rating board, feel is "right". The only thing that should matter for data that goes into the DVD Profiler database is what DVD Profiler's own contribution rules have to say about it. This is my last post on the subject. I've said all there is to say on the matter, and applying the contribution rules as written, I have never had any problem to determine the correct "Title" field from any given DVD cover - and that also applies to the many German discs in my collection. You won't change the way you look at it either, and it's all been done before as well. There's just no point... | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: January 16, 2010 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,617 |
| | Posted: | | | | Seriously? Every rule allows interpretation. Otherwise we wouldn't need judges and courts anywhere in the world.
Why do we have a contribution discussion forum anyway when interpretation isn't allowed.
You seem to think that your view is only way to read the rules. Is it not.
In your interpretation If the title appears in multiple languages... means the same as If the title contains multiple languages.... In my interpretation it does not.
Your view is an interpretation and my view is an interpretation.
I could make a lot example why you'r so-called solutions are many things except real solutions.
But I don't think this leads anywhere. | | | Think different
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end. | | | | Last edited: by ninso4 |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,744 |
| | Posted: | | | | T!M, your argument is flawed in the way that the way Germans do their titles has no impact on things like the CLT. If it is a German movie then the title is what it is anyway even if it were to contain English words. If it is a non-German movie then the profile will have an original title anyway and that will trump the title when it comes to the CLT. Every country has their idiosyncrasies. A German one is to include the English title (and let's be frank here, it's almost always an English title, the last non-English title I can remember is La Boum - Die Fete) is because it sounds cool in the distributor's ears. Sometimes the English title is a subtitle, sometimes the German title is the subtitle. Sometimes - like on the following movie poster from 1983(!) - they are equal:  In Germany no one knows WarGames as Kriegsspiele. The Blu-ray release made this point by having Kriegsspiele a mere afterthought:  The rule was invented for Scandinavian or Canadian covers like this:   where the same disc is sold to different markets as made obvious by the bilingual overview. BTW: This discussion goes back as far as at least 2004 where we discussed this on Intervocative and the same arguments were given back then as they are now. | | | Karsten
DVD Collectors Online
 | | | | Last edited: by DJ Doena |
| | Registered: January 16, 2010 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,617 |
| | Posted: | | | | I also don't like many German titles. I think my favorite still is "The Village - Das Dorf" (English translation: "The Village - The Village"). You have to drink a lot to come up with the idea of naming your film this way. But hey, that's what it's called, that's on the DVD's cover and that's what is and what should be in the database.
I think it's allowed by current rules, others don't.
Since English isn't my first language I'm sure others can come up with better phrasings, but maybe the rules should be updated like this:
• If the title appears in multiple languages, use the title that matches the language of the locality and do not include an alternate title ( for instance in another language). This does not apply to titles containing different languages in itself.
• If a single title is composed of two (or more) separated/independet title parts divide them by using "-".
Btw: Which title is entered for Canadian releases with English and French titles on the cover, because both languages are official languages in Canada? | | | Think different
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end. |
| | Registered: December 27, 2009 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 5,131 |
| | Posted: | | | | The Village: Vista Series Region 1 Released: 1/11/2005 Anamorphic 1.85:1 Village (Le): Panoramique Region 1 Released: 1/11/2005 Anamorphic 1.85:1 The Village: Widescreen Region 1 Released: 1/11/2005 Anamorphic 1.85:1 so which of these are wrong (by your interpretation of the rule)? |
| | Registered: January 16, 2010 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,617 |
| | Posted: | | | | Everyone of them is correct.  And the correct entry for this release is... The Village - Das Dorf | | | Think different
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end. | | | | Last edited: by ninso4 |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,744 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting ninso4: Quote:
Btw: Which title is entered for Canadian releases with English and French titles on the cover, because both languages are official languages in Canada? Canada has the rare exception of having two localites: Canada and Canada (Quebec). English for Canada, French for Quebec. | | | Karsten
DVD Collectors Online
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| | Registered: December 27, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,131 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting ninso4: Quote:
Everyone of them.
And the correct entry for this release is... The Village - Das Dorf You are wrong on both counts, 1 is correct your German title is incorrect as is, because you have an extra space after the - |
| | Registered: June 6, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 950 |
| | Posted: | | | | 083Quoting ninso4: Quote:
Which title is entered for Canadian releases with English and French titles on the cover, because both languages are official languages in Canada? There are two localities for canadian releases: Canada, with English as the locality language; and Canada (Québec), with French as the locality language. Taking the example introduced by DJ Doena, the database contains two profiles for the very same DVD of the Bill Murray movie: 012569769083.3 Title: Quick Change Original title: Overview in english from back cover 012569769083.19 Title: Monnaie courante Original title: Quick Change Overview in french from back cover |
| | Registered: January 16, 2010 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,617 |
| | Posted: | | | | Just to show how common those types of titles are (all are "correct" German titles):
1492 - Die Eroberung des Paradieses
50/50 - Freunde fürs (Über)Leben
9/11 - Die letzten Minuten im World Trade Center
Abraham Lincoln - Vampirjäger
ALF - Der Film
Die andere Heimat - Chronik einer Sehnsucht
Arielle - Die Meerjungfrau: Diamond Edition
The Awakening - Geister der Vergangenheit
Baymax - Riesiges Robowabohu
Bean - Der ultimative Katastrophenfilm
The Body - Die Leiche
Born to be Wild - Saumäßig unterwegs
Brassed Off - Mit Pauken und Trompeten
Bridge of Spies - Der Unterhändler
Buffy - Im Bann der Dämonen: Die komplette Serie
The City of the Dead - Stadt der Toten
Crimson Tide - In tiefster Gefahr
Dead by Monday - Gemeinsam stirbt sich's besser
Departed - Unter Feinden: Premium Collection
The Descendants - Familie und andere Angelegenheiten
Die Deutschen I - Ein Jahrtausend deutscher Geschichte
Die Deutschen II - Ein Jahrtausend deutscher Geschichte
Don't Torture a Duckling - Quäle nie ein Kind zum Scherz: 2-Disc Limited Collector's Edition
The Edge of Seventeen - Das Jahr der Entscheidung
Die Eiskönigin - Völlig unverfroren
Equilibrium - Killer of Emotions
Female Agents - Geheimkommando Phoenix: 2-Disc Collector's Edition
Firefly - Der Aufbruch der Serenity: Die komplette Serie
Flashpoint - Das Spezialkommando: Die komplette Serie
The F-Word - Von wegen nur gute Freunde!
Die Geschichte Amerikas - Die Biografie einer Nation
The Guard - Ein Ire sieht schwarz
Gullivers Reisen - Da kommt was Großes auf uns zu
Hot Tub - Der Whirlpool ist 'ne verdammte Zeitmaschine!: Extended Cut
Ich - Einfach unverbesserlich
Ich - Einfach unverbesserlich 2 in 3D
iLove - geloggt, geliked, geliebt
In Time - Deine Zeit läuft ab
Insomnia - Schlaflos
Invictus - Unbezwungen
Ironclad - Bis zum letzten Krieger
jOBS - Die Erfolgsstory von Steve Jobs
Liberace - Zu viel des Guten ist wundervoll
Life of Pi - Schiffbruch mit Tiger 3D: 3-Disc Collector's Edition
Lord of War - Händler des Todes
Love & Other Drugs - Nebenwirkungen inklusive
Merida - Legende der Highlands: 3-Disc Set
Der müde Tod - Ein deutsches Volkslied in sechs Versen: Murnau Stiftung Deluxe Edition
OZ - Hölle hinter Gitter - Die erste Season
P2 - Schreie im Parkhaus
Prestige - Die Meister der Magie: Limitierte Steelbook-Edition
RED - Älter. Härter. Besser.
Rapunzel 3-D - Neu Verföhnt: 2-Disc Set
The Revenant - Der Rückkehrer
Ruby Sparks - Meine fabelhafte Freundin
The Da Vinci Code - Sakrileg: Extended Version 2-Disc Set
Scrubs - Die Anfänger: Die komplette Serie
Serenity - Flucht in neue Welten
Die Simpsons - Der Film
The Spirit - Meine Stadt schreit: Limited Edition
Super - Shut Up Crime!
(T)Raumschiff Surprise - Periode 1
Teuflisch - Mephisto '68: 3-Disc Limited Collector's Edition
Unstoppable - Außer Kontrolle
Das Urteil - Jeder ist käuflich
W. - Ein missverstandenes Leben
Watchmen - Die Wächter: Limited Edition 2-Disc-Blu-ray-Rorschach
Wild Target - Sein schärfstes Ziel
If all those titles are wrong would somebody give me correct titles and original titles for the releases. | | | Think different
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end. |
| | Registered: June 26, 2013 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 694 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting ninso4: Quote:
The Village - Das Dorf English title - German title is not: Der große Crash - Margin Call German title - English title not my rules, but If the title appears in multiple languages, use the title that matches the language of the locality and do not include an alternate title ( for instance in another language). | | | 
the real BirthYear OverView |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting ninso4: Quote:
The structure of many German (and other Non-English) titles is:
title
line break
subtitle Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
... though I have to admit, the majority of dual language covers are English titles followed by a German translation or subtitle. - None the less, these can never be handled by the mentioned rule. I honestly don't care how this is resolved, but this kinda makes T!M's point for him. If it is a title AND a subtitle, each in a different language, it isn't a single title. It's two titles in different languages.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 5,715 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
As I said from the get-go, I'm well aware that this particular rule isn't popular. It's not about a rule not popular, but about a rule which was intended for one special case (covers covering more than one destinatin language), which is simply not aplicable to German movies (except some, very little, swiss titles, which show German/French covers). The German releases do NOT have more than one title on the cover! They may have a combined title, an English title with a German tag line, an English title, with a German subtitle, etc. - but in nearly every case they only show ONE title, regardless how many words of which language are used to form that title. | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,715 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting AiAustria:
Quote:
... though I have to admit, the majority of dual language covers are English titles followed by a German translation or subtitle. - None the less, these can never be handled by the mentioned rule.
I honestly don't care how this is resolved, but this kinda makes T!M's point for him. If it is a title AND a subtitle, each in a different language, it isn't a single title. It's two titles in different languages. Au contraire! Title with subtitle is exactly the case where omitting the (English main) title would completely ruin the meaning! Just some examples where the subtitles is completely arbitrary and meaningless: Coco Chanel - Der Beginn einer Leidenschaft (start of a passion) Crimson Tide - In tiefster Gefahr (in deep/great danger) Girls Club - Vorsicht bissig (caution snappy; remark: original title: Mean Girls) I don't care about simple translations as the initial example represents. But I really care about the others, where there is more information in the combined title... And last not least, there must be a reason, why the distributor or the FSK uses the combined titles and not an abreviation: These are simply the titles for our language/region, which are used everywhere: in theatres, DVD, by TV stations. - Who are we to redefine the title of a feature only to fit it into a ruleset (meant for something completely different)? | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
| | Registered: January 16, 2010 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,617 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
And last not least, there must be a reason, why the distributor or the FSK uses the combined titles and not an abreviation: These are simply the titles for our language/region, which are used everywhere: in theatres, DVD, by TV stations. - Who are we to redefine the title of a feature only to fit it into a ruleset (meant for something completely different) That's the point. On the one side we have an interpretation of the rules that works, thats causes no confusion, that makes finding titles in the database easy, that is simple and most important giving films their correct intended titles.On the other side is a interpretation that makes deciding which title is allowed in which field harder, that forbids some titles at all, that causes confusion, that makes finding titles in the database more difficult and that destroys well known and well used German titles because of the interpretation of a rule which never was intended to even apply in such a case. | | | Think different
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
The German releases do NOT have more than one title on the cover!
They may have a combined title, an English title with a German tag line, an English title, with a German subtitle, etc. - but in nearly every case they only show ONE title, regardless how many words of which language are used to form that title. A 'tag line', by definition, is not a title nor is it part of the title. A 'subtitle', by definition, is not a title nor is it part of the title. As I said, I don't care how you enter them but, at the very least, be consistent with your argument. It's either a two part title, or it's a title with a subtitle/tag line. It can't be both. Anyway, I've lost interest, so I will leave you to it. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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