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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Name Giving Panel |
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| Author |
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| Registered: March 20, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
About common names, if we stick on rules as they are now, I think the battle is lost, though very litlle changes would solve thousands of problems. Your problems aren't everyone's problems. The way it is now doesn't bother me (and I expect many others) very much at all. --------------- |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Grendell: Quote:
Who really cares how actors are "most commonly credited?" Not me. For all I care, the identifier ("common name") would be something like actorID734647846 - perfectly fine, as long as it manages to link the person's credits together. |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 5,715 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Grendell: Quote:
Who really cares how actors are "most commonly credited?" It may be interesting to a degree but not enough to warrant the amount of time and effort being spent on it. I think really nobody cares about the most commonly credited name variant - some of us even fight against it - but currently it's the only way of getting around the sick database layout. It's an attempt to get unique names to link roles and jobs together, a very simple attempt. | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
... It's an attempt to get unique names to link roles and jobs together, a very simple attempt. It is an attempt, but far from being simple. The simpliest to find the unique name is to use the unique name everytime it exists, which covers 90% of linking problems, and never invent something that exists nowhere, even not in credits. Example: most of Asian actors have a unique "given name+family name". Why use two variants "given name+family name" and "family name+given name". We just have to be told which one Ken wants in the database, as he has chosen for "Jr" versus "Jr." | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,715 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting scotthm: Quote:
The way it is now doesn't bother me (and I expect many others) very much at all. I'd predict that most of the users don't even realise the existing problems. But this doesn't mean, they are not existant and for sure, they are not ignorable. With a couple of hundreds of films it may be easy to ignore the rules and do the whole work alone. But over a thoudand or so it becomes a pain in the ass. From my point of view, there are enough folks around here, caring about their databases, some following the rules and some ignoring it. Uniting all this workforce should manage to get the current system to a state worth contributing. The two major problems still open are the quarreling and the lost workforce of the people who turned their back to the current contribution system. The first point is, what I try to address with this thread and with the attempt to get the needed institutions any democracy builds: in this case a system of justice (for a very small fracture of the rule set). And IMHO - if the first point could be solved, the second point will solve on its own. It is easy to convince rational people joining a working system (keep in mind: I said working, neither perfect nor without really great potential of improvement!). | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,715 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
It is an attempt, but far from being simple. ... simple as in A Simple Mind... I'll never call the job to tidy up the current mess - injected by a faulty database design - being easy! | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) | | | | Last edited: by AiAustria |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
I'd predict that most of the users don't even realise the existing problems. I agree with that. Especially among users that do not know that American English is not the only spoken language in the world  | | | | Images from movies | | | | Last edited: by surfeur51 |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,715 |
| | Posted: | | | | I think that's not really the main problem...
I'm astonished how many common name probles are still included in my database, simply because they are listed as credited and never checked for linking... | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
... simply because they are listed as credited and never checked for linking... It is probably because you download data from the online database, which is the last thing to do...  | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Just to be clear, I do not use common names in my database, so honestly don't care what you guys do.
How do you handle name linking? Do you audit each and every film on you own?? I don't handle name linking. I have mentioned this in other threads, but I honestly don't care about linking. When I'm watching a film or TV show, and I see an actor that I want to know what else they might have been in, I pick up my tablet and go to IMDb. While I don't audit every film I own, I am working my way through them. As I audit them, I 'correct' them so that they match the end credits, then lock them down. Quote:
Quote:
That being said, there is a fatal flaw in this suggestion. Without Ken adding something to the rules supporting this, you can't hold other users...especially those that don't visit the forums...to any ruling you decide to make.
Yes and no.
Yes, people not following the forum don't know about common names. Neither birth years.
An no: Their lack of knowing decisions of such a board won't worsen that, since theese guys leave the name linking to others anyways. It sounds like you are saying people that don't visit the forums don't contribute common names. While I don't contribute a lot, because I don't use common names, I do vote a lot and I see plenty of people contributing common names, based on the CLT, that never come to the forums. How are you going to 'force' them to abide by decisions that are not covered by the rules? | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 5,734 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Based on prior common name thread activity I would like to nominate Sidrat, huskersports, AiAustria & bbbbb.
With profound gratitude and great humility, I accept your nomination.
Even if Ken decided on doing this (in my opinion terrible... database ruining) idea... you would definitely never get my vote. I don't think I have ever seen you make what looked like a serious post.... ever.
I'd like to have bigdaddyhorse in my team. | | | | Don't confuse while the film is playing with when the film is played. [Ken Cole, DVD Profiler Architect] |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,272 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
I'm working on common names and birth years for quite a while. Out of this experience I see two major problems (intentionally ignoring Ken's refusal of a real solution - redesigning the program - and the real name issue (gretings to Yves), since both this areas are a great resource for moaning but don't improve our database or solve our problems) which are not addressed in any way by now:
• Common name threads which are not conclusive
• Birth years which are needed to distinguish persons from each other but which are not determinable.
Now I'm wondering if we could set up some sort of supreme court to decide tied common name threads and assign fake birth years in such cases.
A little more detail, on what's going on in my sick brain:
We could elect a (very) small number of members (five, maybe seven) who could be called to solve any of the above problems.
They should have the opportunity to discuss the cases in a closed forum and they should have the power to:
• assign contributable fake birth years (even in cases where two persons have the same known birth year)
• call out a binding common name which shall be used and locked (!) for considerable amount of time (six to twelve months) to reduce the amount of flip flopping...
I've not really thougt about the election or the reelection of such a board. But this should be managable...
Neither I've asked officially to submit fake birth years. But this should be managable too.
What do you think about?
Especially I'm interested in a feedback from Ken on this, since it would need an additional (closed) forum and the ability (including a process) to submit fake birth years... I applaud the effort and incentive to fix a well known problem. I also think Ken has some other plan for this, as he as hinted about in the past. But for whatever reason he thinks the future of DVDProfiler akin to state secrets. The story I have in made up in my head is that Ken has Asperger's, ore related anxiety, and just doesn't relate well with others. Whatever the case the soonest the community hears about any changes or improvements is when he rolls out a beta. Which is completely back assward. Still don't know why he doesn't engage people that would love to spend hundreds of hours for free helping improve his product. Even if Ken supported this idea, I do see issues. The committee and closed proceedings would result in a huge arguments, IMO. I'd say it be better to give read access to the forum to those that requested it, so they can see the discussions. I've also said in the past it'd be great to have some sort of ruling board to make decisions on Ken's behalf, since he almost never comments on any rules discussion. Of course he'd always have final say. IMO The perfect solution is to have an online database of cast & crew, that you can link to in each profile. If a name comes up that should be split, there should be a process in place to cover it. But make it community driven like the online db, with screeners involved to make the final ruling. | | | HDTV: 52" Toshiba Regza 52XV545U AVR: Onkyo TR-707
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| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 5,734 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Grendell: Quote:
There has been quite a lot of work and effort by people on "Common Names" for many years now. I confirm credits for relaxation, meditation, and stress relief. | | | | Don't confuse while the film is playing with when the film is played. [Ken Cole, DVD Profiler Architect] |
| | Registered: December 27, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,131 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting bbbbb: Quote:
Quoting Grendell:
Quote:
There has been quite a lot of work and effort by people on "Common Names" for many years now.
I confirm credits for relaxation, meditation, and stress relief. and you also seem to find that golden nugget, when someone confirms an incorrect credit. | | | | Last edited: by ateo357 |
| | Registered: June 1, 2013 |  Posts: 217 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
With a couple of hundreds of films it may be easy to ignore the rules and do the whole work alone. But over a thoudand or so it becomes a pain in the ass.
Speaking from personal experience (22, 526 individual film titles/profiles at last count, all film lengths) , not as hard as some may think. A film can be fully audited, all pertinent data complete in a matter of minutes, especially easy are older films (those without end credits that last 10 minutes where even the guy that got the pizza is credited). I have zero problems with linking cast & crew names in my database. Granted, I have both the time and the inclination. I like doing it. Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
From my point of view, there are enough folks around here, caring about their databases, some following the rules and some ignoring it. Uniting all this workforce should manage to get the current system to a state worth contributing.
I like to contribute film data. 58, 472 individual pieces of film data for this year (2015) alone....according to IMDb's end of year email letter to top contributors. Everything from single corrections to entire new film title full credits (even the guy who delivered the pizza). I would contribute here as well,without any fanfare, if I didn't have to create two sets of data....one for the online "Invelos rules", and one for my local.  Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
I'd predict that most of the users don't even realise the existing problems. But this doesn't mean, they are not existant and for sure, they are not ignorable.
I think you may be right. Others may simply not care, not giving a second thought to cast and crew. Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
Now I'm wondering if we could set up some sort of supreme court to decide tied common name threads and assign fake birth years in such cases.
A little more detail, on what's going on in my sick brain:
We could elect a (very) small number of members (five, maybe seven) who could be called to solve any of the above problems.
They should have the opportunity to discuss the cases in a closed forum and they should have the power to:
• assign contributable fake birth years (even in cases where two persons have the same known birth year)
• call out a binding common name which shall be used and locked (!) for considerable amount of time (six to twelve months) to reduce the amount of flip flopping...
Wouldn't affect me one way or the other, but in principle you'd get my vote. I have no use for common names or fake/real birth years, but I like your idea of electing a group of members who could solve problems, with one proviso. That group should be democratically elected. To my way of thinking, the site owner (Ken) should have zero say on how the users use the online. The rules should be democratically determined (via vote) by the users themselves...the people that use, contribute to, and pay for the program. |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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