Quoting tas314:

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Quoting Rifter:

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It's sort of like the coin sets you can buy.  For $19.95 you get the fancy presentation folder and the first coin, and then you have to buy each individual coin for the rest of the thing as they are issued.  You certainly wouldn't put the additional coins in some other folder just because you didn't buy them right up front.

Where you store the coin/DVD has nothing to do with the original purchase. You can't go back in time and change things.

Just because you have bought the next volume in the series you can't assume that everyone has. If you add it to the box set field of the volume+box profile and upload it to the online DB then that data will not be valid for some users.

The box set data should be locked after the original box profile is created. Then when you buy another volume you can add it local if you want. After all you want it to reflect what YOU have, not what some other user has, and I don't care what volumes you have, so that data should not be in the online database.  Keep it local since it's only sure to be valid locally.

Sorry, but that's just plain stupid.  They are sold with the intent that the buyer will put the subsequent volumes IN THE BOX alongside Volume 1!  What other earthly purpose would they have for selling a box with extra space in it for the rest of the volumes if that wasn't the intent from the start?  You add the subsequent volumes to the Boxset Button as you get them, and should be included in the online profile that way.  It has nothing to do with what another user has - don't know where you even came up with that, I certainly didn't mention it.

Quoting Remus:

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you want to track a boxset release then do so... but when the company solicits these dvds... its title name vol. # for regular and its title name vol. # then LE or SE for the version with the series box.

they dont put the "box" title as the release name.

Correct.  However you're not entering the companies' marketing into the database, you're entering the actual title of the object that you receive.  And that title is, for example: "Fate/Stay Night: Limited Collector's Box".  The UPC is on the box.  The cover images, per the rules, must match the cover of the profile being entered, including UPC (except that the cover images are front/back only, and since the UPC is often on the bottom, you probably won't see it on the image).  As the UPC is on the box, the cover image must be of the box.  As the cover image, title, and UPC are all of the box, the profile itself must be of the box.  Putting other information in there would be disengenuous, except insofar as the profile may be that of a Box Set, in which case it can pull information from its child profiles.

Quoting Blueloopstah:

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The purpose of the box included with the volume x has no relevance, all we are interested in is the DVD and whatever comes with it when it is bought.

Marketing says, "We're selling you volume 1, plus a fancy box to put all these discs in."  You can as easily say, "I bought all these John Wayne movies.  They also came in this nice box to hold them all together."  Does that mean the profile entry for the box set of the John Wayne DVD collection has no relevance?  The box is an 'extra' relative to the DVDs you're buying, but in terms of how it is entered in a structural database, the box is the 'parent' of all those DVDs, not because it has importance on its own, but because it provides a way to collect disparate information together that you want all in one place.

tas314:

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Daughter profiles should use Disc ID. Even if it's the same as the single version with the same UPC it's not the same product. The single has a non-zero SRP, the daughter profile should have a SRP of zero.  Just sticking the single into the box profile will result in the profile containing wrong data. You can take the single profile, change the UPC to disc ID, zero the SRP and resubmit to save work.

I'd only agree with this in the case that the contained keepcase does not have a UPC.  In any other Box Set that contains multiple movies or whatever, the individual cases are also sold separately.  That doesn't mean the Box Set versions need to be made into Disc ID entries just so that you can claim they have $0 SRP.

Remus:

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if I buy vol x with series box... i am not buying a boxset.  i have to buy additional volumes to fill the box.

In general, you seemed to object to adding additional volume profiles to the original box entry.  I agree with this.  There appears to be some concerns about using the database locking mechanism, though (there's another thread about that somewhere around here).  As long as people can recognize that additional added volumes to the box profile should not be submitted, and even if they do they can be voted down, then I don't think this would be so much an objection as a concern that people keep aware of the rules regarding it.


To those objecting to putting this in as the base of a box set, I will say that I honestly tried to fit together the idea of entering the profiles as DVD only, several times.  At first it seems appropriate, and I almost feel that I'm trying too hard to get the Box Set rules to apply here.  Yet as I dig more into how each of the rules link into the data, what choices need to be made about the object you're entering and how that relates to other data fields, not to mention the issues of convenience and logical conceptualization, I always come back to the point that these cannot be considered anything but the base profile for a Box Set.  (sorry for the run-on there)

I've dealt with trying to enter these profiles for many years, and it's never been a comfortable situation.  Part of that is due to the simple fact that the rules don't tidily lay out how they should be treated, and we're all left trying to figure out what will work best.  But part is also due to the fact that at the moment they -are- layed out as DVD profiles first, box sets second, and it just doesn't work well.


If necessary, we can put up another poll to determine whether a vol 1 + box entry should be considered primarily as the box or primarily as the keepcase.  Then we can move on to refine the details.

Rifter, that particular point can be argued either way (as originally purchased vs what it's intended to hold). However I think it's muddying the issue we're trying to resolve at the moment, and we can have another discussion specifically for that later on.  I'd just like to get a consensus that will hopefully allow us to treat these as box sets at all right now.  I'll probably post a new poll on it this evening, if someone else hasn't already put one together.

Quoting Kinematics:

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Rifter, that particular point can be argued either way (as originally purchased vs what it's intended to hold). However I think it's muddying the issue we're trying to resolve at the moment, and we can have another discussion specifically for that later on.  I'd just like to get a consensus that will hopefully allow us to treat these as box sets at all right now.  I'll probably post a new poll on it this evening, if someone else hasn't already put one together.

I have no problem calling them boxsets, because that is exactly what they are!    But I have to ask why a company would sell a box with one volume in it and room for the rest of the volumes in that set UNLESS the box was intended to eventually hold ALL those volumes as a complete set?

Any other explanation simply doesn't make any logical sense. 

Quoting Rifter:

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How about because that's what the manufacturer intended?  Ya think?

It is clearly a marketing gimmick to entice the buyer to purchase the REST OF the volumes in that set and PLACE THEM IN THE BOX! 

This is DVD Profiler though not Manufacturers Intention Profiler.

The main objection however is the point that classing a Volume X + box as a box set is against the rules as besides the odd exception that can be entered as box sets none of them contain more than 1 DVD volume.

Quoting Blueloopstah:

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Quoting Blueloopstah:

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Quoting Rifter:

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How about because that's what the manufacturer intended?  Ya think?

It is clearly a marketing gimmick to entice the buyer to purchase the REST OF the volumes in that set and PLACE THEM IN THE BOX! 

This is DVD Profiler though not Manufacturers Intention Profiler.

The main objection however is the point that classing a Volume X + box as a box set is against the rules, as besides the odd exception that can be entered as box sets none of them contain more than 1 DVD volume.

And you can't do it in a vacuum either.  We are dependent to a large degree on how they manufacture and market this stuff.  The object is to profile what's on the DVD, but THEIR manufacturing and marketing methods determine in many ways HOW we have to profile it to have it make any bloody sense!

Quoting tas314:

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Not true.
If you go to ADV's web site and look under "now available" you will see...
Utawarerumono Volume 2: In The Face of Evil
Utawarerumono Volume 2 + Box
This is more or less standard, and it's what you will see in catalogues and at online stores.  When you look at the actual box no, Box is not in the title as a rule (there are exceptions) because it's bleeding obvious that it's a box.

However if you look at the actual physical objects you purchase, nowhere on them does it say "vol x + box."  The box just has the name of the series and the volume inside just has the name of the volume.  Neither reference the other.  Usually the packaging for the box references the volume(s) inside, but I don't believe we use packaging (ie shrink wrap, stickers, etc) in naming profiles.

Quoting Blueloopstah:

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I just can't understand how some people can think a single DVD release can be classed as a box set just because it comes with a box. 

Because it is a boxset.  The UPC is for the box, the cover is for the box (different than the volume contained), the title is for the box.  These are most certainly NOT single DVDs with slipcovers or fancy containers (like Casino Royale the individual LOTR EE releases).  Regardless of how websites or retailers describe them you're really buying the box, and that box includes the nth volume.

It is a special case of a boxset where the entire set is not released at once.  Unfortunately the current rules don't seem to cover it.  There seems to be two schools of thought here, those trying to force this special case into the current rules, and those trying to figure out how they should be handled.

I definitely agree with Kinematics on this, they are box sets, they should be entered with the box as the parent and the included volume(s) as child profile(s).  The only thing that keeps these from being a box set under the current rules is the "more than one film" clause.  And I think starter sets (as these are, or the "finisher" sets that are appearing) should be an exception to that rule.

Now I do fully understand the concerns of those who point out that only one volume is included and one may not collect the full series.  As such I think a good compromise is to add these as a parent box set and child profile(s) for the volume(s) included, and then lock it at that.  Individual users can then locally add the discs they have collected, be it some or all.

Remember, DVD Profiler has two purposes:

1)  Tracking releases
2)  Tracking collections

The rules/procedures/etc that we follow must support both of these as best possible.  By defining these special cases as a Box Set parent and Child profile(s) for only those volumes included, and locking them as such in the online DB, we successfully track the release, but still allow users to track their own collections.  And since box set children aren't automatically downloaded, there's no end-user functionality hit this way.

My suggestion would be to amend the rules to include a provision for "starter sets", as these are becoming more and more popular, especially with anime/tv releases.