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A New Forum?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:

Where we discuss it doesn't make it a new "facility".

If it is not a facility, why this request ?

FYI, quote from the OP, bolded by me :

Quoting Merrik:
Quote:
... and it would make it easier to continually update the Credited As database as needed.
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTaro
Registered: February 23, 2009
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Personally I'm not against such a forum, provided it is used in an efficient way to improve the database.

Personally opinion follows, please don't shoot me 

I think, at least for certain names, the constant ping-ponging doesn't do anyone any good: it's a lot of work for contributors to update names as the CLT shifts constantly one way or another, and it's a hassle for users as well.

If such a forum could be used to determine once and for all the name we will stick with for each of those cases, no matter how the CLT keeps shifting, then I think it can be very useful. Here's a fictional example:

CLT constantly shifts between Kitaro Kaneda and Kitarou Kaneda. A user posts a copy of that actor's curriculum vitae (which in some cases are surprisingly easy to come by) in the new forum, which has his name as Kitarou Kaneda. No matter what the CLT does, we stick with Kitarou Kaneda as common name from now on, since there's compelling evidence.

Then, I think this could be a plus for the database and contributors. The current CLT ping-pong game doesn't benefit users or contributors at all, especially considering the number of errors and typos in film credits, causing the CLT to constantly change, not based on an actor's actually change of name or stage name, but based soley on the mistakes or preferences of others.
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 Last edited: by Taro
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
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Registered: May 19, 2007
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:

Where we discuss it doesn't make it a new "facility".

If it is not a facility, why this request ?

Because it would concentrate the discussions that already take place in one new forum.

And whether you like it or not, the common name is the basis of our linking system, so we are not talking about a "reinforcement" but about a "strengthening by eliminating errors".
Since up to now you failed in showing in how far your system would make linking significantly easier (or at least wouldn't make it more complicated) I don't see any advantage in it.
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributortweeter
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So which topics would be in this "new" forum?

Just CLT issues?

What about parsing questions?  (Contribution or 'new' forum?)
How about honorifics?
How about whether or not something is an article?

I'm sure there are other Cast/Crew related issues i haven't thought of.

I'm against a separate forum because i don't think we can draw as distinct a line between "Contribution" and "Name-related" topics as some here do.

We'd end up bugging moderators to move topics to the other forum when they have better things to do.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
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Quoting tweeter:
Quote:
So which topics would be in this "new" forum?

Just CLT issues?

The way understood it: Yes.
If you take a look at the current situation in the contribution forum you'll find within the first 30 unpinned threads not less than 17 common name threads. In a few weeks it will be very hard to find them among the other topics.
What I'd like to see at least is a pinned thread where you can find the links to the already determined common name - threads.
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributormarcelb7
Registered: Oct. 16, 2000
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Quoting Merrik:
Quote:
I know it was mentioned in some thread, somewhere, at some point... but that thread is... who knows where now.

Here it is.

I only knew where to find it, because I made the suggestion... 
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantMuckl
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Quoting Silence_of_Lambs:
Quote:
What I'd like to see at least is a pinned thread where you can find the links to the already determined common name - threads.

Isn't that what the "Credited as" Name Database and
the corresponding thread are for? The db is just outdated, but people do still post common names in that thread...
 
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAlien Redrum
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Quoting surfeur51:
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I'm personally against an idea that will reinforce the "common name" concept which is the cause of the failure of our (non) linking system. To replace correct names by fictitious names just because  a credit maker made a typo, or a contributor uncorrectly transformed capitalized letters, is a hard work for those who do it and a pain for other database users who have to correct in their local false downloaded information. What is requested here will be a facility to ruin a little more the quality of the database.

But I fear Ken will accept that idea which is easier for him than to work on better linking system.


While I agree with where you are coming from, I would still support a separate forum for these types of threads until a decision is (if ever) made to go to something that works better.

That way, the contribution forum won't be filled with these discussions.

(Note, these discussions are helpful, so don't think I'm devaluing them. )
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
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I think a few people are overthinking this a little bit. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just think that some are taking it to a level of complication it doesn't need to be at.

A new forum for this type of discussion would include Common name threads. This would stop the common name threads from overwhelming the contribution discussion forum, allowing for the other threads in the forum (and the common name threads) to not get lost in the shuffle. Again, there are at least 20 threads on the first two pages right now discussing and trying to figure out common names. All of these threads would be grouped into one forum where they would be easy to find and easy to continually update. We recently had a thread in the contribution forum, after a entire year, finally come to a solid conclusion whether a sound department crew member should or shouldn't be credited without his middle initial (as a common name to help linking in local databases). In a forum dedicated for this type of discussion, that thread wouldn't necessarily get pushed back to page 32 and be incredibly hard to find. And even if it did get pushed back a few pages, people would know exactly where to look for it, making it easier to find.

It would also include the BY thread (this and the common name thread being moved would remove two sticky threads from the Contribution Discussion forum, freeing up some room on the first page). If someone needs help determining or verifying a BY, they would post in this new forum. The BY thread would still continue to be updated on a regular basis like it is now.

It would also include posts from members about which profiles they've recently updated to include full cast and/or crew. This would allow for other members to search through, find a profile that's been updated, clone it, review it and submit it. It would allow us to work together as a community for the greater good. These profiles could also be reviewed for errors if someone so chooses. A member might not realize that Gregory Nicotero's common name is actually Greg Nicotero, and not include the Credited As feature for him. Another member might know this easily, and point it out, allowing for corrections to be made.

I have no issues with name parsing discussions taking place in the forum either. We could even have a sticky topic where definitively determined names that have parsing issues have been concluded.

That's what the forum would be for. All other contribution issues, such as topics going right now like the blank group divider question thread, studio name threads, asking others to contribute better cover scans, proper credit discussions (ex: is recordist a valid crew member), ratings discussions, UPC questions and discussions etc. etc. would all still take place where they're taking place now.

A new forum would simply allow for the grouping of the subjects I mentioned, making them much easier to find, much easier to update and allowing for the Contribution Forum to not be so incredibly cluttered with all the threads. It really isn't a bigger deal than that.
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 Last edited: by Merrik
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
I'm personally against an idea that will reinforce the "common name" concept which is the cause of the failure of our (non) linking system. To replace correct names by fictitious names just because  a credit maker made a typo, or a contributor uncorrectly transformed capitalized letters, is a hard work for those who do it and a pain for other database users who have to correct in their local false downloaded information. What is requested here will be a facility to ruin a little more the quality of the database.

But I fear Ken will accept that idea which is easier for him than to work on better linking system.


I have to agree with T!M. Where we discuss it doesn't make it a new "facility". Everything that would be discussed is already being discussed. Everything that's in place would stay exactly the same as it is now, we'd just be grouping all the topics into an easier place to find. That's the only purpose behind requesting something such as this. Ease. Nothing more, nothing less. The credited as database I mentioned in the original post from last year is already in existence, and at the time, it was regularly being updated, I'm not sure it is anymore. It can be found here. It's been in use on the forums for almost three years at this point. Again, nothing new, just making it easier for those users seeking such information.

I understand you don't like the common name concept (at least it appears so from your post). I actually happen to agree. I think the linking system needs a complete and utter overhaul. However, the common name system is what we have to work with at this moment. It's ALL we have to work with at this moment. Improving it's effeciency as it stands now will do absolutely NO harm to the community at large. The common name concept is Ken's idea, and as we've been told, we're apparently stuck with it for the forseeable future.

I also agree it's basically the cause of a failed linking system. Daniel J. Leahy, Daniel Leahy and Dan Leahy don't link up in locals. However, with common name threads, we would be able to determine that Daniel Leahy is in fact the common name. In our locals, we can apply the credited as feature, submit, and bam, improved linking through-out the entire database. Again, I don't particularly like the system, but it's what we have and we have to deal with it. Having a new forum would make it easier to deal with. Again, that's all that's being requested here. Nothing more, nothing less.

If this is what we have, why not make the best of it?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
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I have to agree with Merrik on how I saw the new forum used.

I know this is forum is one that Ken himself created... but I think if possible he should make it more like a sub-forum of the Contribution forum.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
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If Ken gives us this new forum I would even offer my time to keep up to date a link index alphabetically that could be pinned at the top of the forum to make it even easier to find the names.
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
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Quoting marcelb7:
Quote:
Quoting Merrik:
Quote:
I know it was mentioned in some thread, somewhere, at some point... but that thread is... who knows where now.

Here it is.

I only knew where to find it, because I made the suggestion... 


 
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
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Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
If Ken gives us this new forum I would even offer my time to keep up to date a link index alphabetically that could be pinned at the top of the forum to make it even easier to find the names.


I'd also happily volunteer my time to do something such as this. We could have a pinned Common Name thread, where, as Addicted has said, we could keep a link index in alphabetical order of solved common name discussions.

We could also have the BY thread pinned in this forum.

Sam's recent thread of completed cast & crew profiles could be pinned in the forum.

And we could have a parsing thread pinned in the forum as well. Again, we could keep a link index in alphabetical order of solved parsing discussions (such as Helena Bonham Carter or Jonathan Rhys Meyers).

Four pinned threads, completely and totally accesible in one place, making it extremely easy to find whatever name may be in question for whatever reason. And if that name isn't there, you know exactly where to post a topic about it.
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 Last edited: by Merrik
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
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Quoting Merrik:
Quote:

If this is what we have, why not make the best of it?


Replacing real names that are today in CLT due to the fact they were entered per the rules before Ken's "clarification" (more than two years ago), by fake names, generated today by the same "clarification", is not what I call "the best of it". Nobody is obliged to correct an old profile, that had been entered per the rules, just to transform the common name to a collection of letters that are used nowhere except in dvdprofiler. Just keep existing one when it matches with the real name.

The best of a database is to find correct data in it, not to put false information in it in order to give bad information to users.

I'm sorry to say that because I'm sure that they wanted to help others, but people that spent much of their time to invent fictitious data, in fact ruined the database, that was better, from this point of view, two years before than now.

But those who are really the cause of this mess are those who asked for an unneeded clarification that just helps lazyness, instead of searching for correct spelling. The time spent now in those threads is probably much more than the one needed to verify an accentuation.
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 Last edited: by surfeur51
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
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What you're talking about has absolutely no bearing on finding the most commonly credited name for someone like Daniel J. Leahy/Daniel Leahy/Dan Leay who has been credited as all three through-out his career. It has nothing to do with the correct parsing of Helena Bonham Carter. It has nothing to do with distinguishing between two Kevin Smiths with proper birth years.

You're focusing on one aspect of this system. This system that needs to be improved. This system that COULD be improved by a new forum.

This is all we have. We have to work with it. There's no getting around it. Per the rules, this is how it works, now.

If you don't like it, fine. No worries. No problems. I don't particularly like it either. However, there are people in this community that aren't sitting around saying "I wish it was this way" or "It was better two years ago" without actively trying to find ways to make what we have now work better. That's all this thread is about. Making what we have now, what we're stuck with, what we can't get rid of, work better. That's all we can do at this point since this is what we have.

This conversation doesn't really have anything to do with the introduction of a new forum as it has to do with how you're unhappy with the system as it stands now. So until something that neither of us has the control to change, changes, this isn't going to get us anywhere. We'll talk ourselves around in circles until everyone's pissed off about something or other, and that's not something I want, or intended with this thread.

To go back to what the thread is intended for, the possible introduction of a new forum, I'd like to ask Ken. Since you poked your head in here, is there actually any chance that a forum like this could see the light of day? Maybe a timeline?
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