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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Evita writing credits question |
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| Author |
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| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Tell me how I know from the Evita credit that these guys authored the entire play. But this is the bit I just don't understand. Just because there's music involved - why are you assuming that someone else must have been involved? Two people are listed as writing the music and lyrics for a musical play. Why do you assume from that credit that someone else must have been involved? |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
Quoting unicus69:
Quote:
All we know from the credit is that the film was based on the musical play. Nothing in that credit tells us who wrote the musical play. For all we know, it was written by somebody else and these two just wrote music and lyrics. (I am not saying that is the cast, just that the credits don't say otherwise.)
It's the same judgment call we make to discern whether "Music by" is the Composer or "Song Writer" credit.
I don't think so. That's a very clear distinction.
If a "Music By" credit follows the name of a song, then it clearly is not a "Composer" credit. Not hard to figure out.
Tell me how I know from the Evita credit that these guys authored the entire play. What he said. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
Quoting unicus69:
Quote:
All we know from the credit is that the film was based on the musical play. Nothing in that credit tells us who wrote the musical play. For all we know, it was written by somebody else and these two just wrote music and lyrics. (I am not saying that is the cast, just that the credits don't say otherwise.)
It's the same judgment call we make to discern whether "Music by" is the Composer or "Song Writer" credit.
I don't think so. That's a very clear distinction.
If a "Music By" credit follows the name of a song, then it clearly is not a "Composer" credit. Not hard to figure out.
Tell me how I know from the Evita credit that these guys authored the entire play. You don't have to know they authored the entire play. The credit tells you that the film is based on the play for which they wrote music and lyrics. "Songs" are allowable as OMB in the program. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
Quoting unicus69:
Quote:
All we know from the credit is that the film was based on the musical play. Nothing in that credit tells us who wrote the musical play. For all we know, it was written by somebody else and these two just wrote music and lyrics. (I am not saying that is the cast, just that the credits don't say otherwise.)
It's the same judgment call we make to discern whether "Music by" is the Composer or "Song Writer" credit.
I don't think so. That's a very clear distinction.
If a "Music By" credit follows the name of a song, then it clearly is not a "Composer" credit. Not hard to figure out.
Tell me how I know from the Evita credit that these guys authored the entire play.
What he said. What I said.  | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting northbloke:
Quote:
Of course it tells us who wrote the play - if anyone else was involved, don't you think they'd have been mentioned too?
Tim Rice wrote the words, Andrew Lloyd Webber wrote the music, nobody else wrote anything else.
It doesn't matter what I think. It only matters what the credit says. In this case it does not say they wrote the musical play. Only that one wrote some music and one wrote some lyrics. Oh come on, but that's stretching it. Cute answer warning: Let's see - we have a musical play - that involves music and words. We have a credit - one for music, one for words. Take the music and words away from a musical play, and what parts are we left with? The interval! |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
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Quoting northbloke:
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Quoting hal9g:
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Quoting northbloke:
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I'll give a better example:
If the credit said: based on the song, lyrics by john doe, music by john smith
would you give them OMB credits? Cos I would.
Yes, they are clearly the authors of the "song" based on that credit.
Then simply replace "song" with "musical play". It's the same situation.
If the credit said, "Based on a Musical Play by ALW and TR" then I would agree with you.
That's not what it says.
That's why I was very careful with my example. The wording is exactly the same except I replaced "musical play" with "song". Why would we suddenly have to have "by" just because it says "musical play"? Because a song is a single unit with a single credit for music and lyrics (the single credit of course can be for multiple people). A play on the other hand can have multiple songs with different credits and dialogue with yet another credit. A play could have a single song with the same credits as in Evita. The people so credited would definitely not be considered the "writers" of the play they contributed a single song. Quote:
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All I am saying is that looking at the credit, I don't know if anyone else was involved. Looking at the credit, I don't know that Webber and Rice wrote the entire play from beginning to end.
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Why do the fact that they are music credits make a difference - it's a musical play. And remember, for OMB we're not necessarily looking for a traditional "writing" credit, we're only looking for people who created the "original material" - there's no mention in the rules that the material has to be in textual form. Granted. But again, based on the credit, for all I know they wrote one song for the play. | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 3,197 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quote:
Based on the musical play EVITA, Lyrics by Tim Rice, Music by Andrew Lloyd Webber To me this is as clear as an OMB credit gets, but I guess some of you just want to be impossible.  | | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
Quoting unicus69:
Quote:
All we know from the credit is that the film was based on the musical play. Nothing in that credit tells us who wrote the musical play. For all we know, it was written by somebody else and these two just wrote music and lyrics. (I am not saying that is the cast, just that the credits don't say otherwise.)
It's the same judgment call we make to discern whether "Music by" is the Composer or "Song Writer" credit.
I don't think so. That's a very clear distinction.
If a "Music By" credit follows the name of a song, then it clearly is not a "Composer" credit. Not hard to figure out.
Tell me how I know from the Evita credit that these guys authored the entire play.
You don't have to know they authored the entire play. The credit tells you that the film is based on the play for which they wrote music and lyrics. "Songs" are allowable as OMB in the program. For an OMB for songs it should say "based on Songs By or the Lyrics and Music of ALW and TR". The credit says its based on the Play Evita, but then does not clearly define the author, IMO. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
But this is the bit I just don't understand. Just because there's music involved - why are you assuming that someone else must have been involved?
Two people are listed as writing the music and lyrics for a musical play. Why do you assume from that credit that someone else must have been involved? You are missing the point. Nobody is assuming someone else was involved. What we are saying is that, based on the credit, we do not know whether or not they wrote the musical play. All we know is that they wrote some music and some lyrics. I will give you an example of an OMB credit for a film based on a musical. This is the credit from Sweeney Todd: Based on the musical by Stephen Sondheim and Hugh WheelerOriginally staged by Harold PrinceSee the difference between the two credits? | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Tell me how I know from the Evita credit that these guys authored the entire play.
But this is the bit I just don't understand. Just because there's music involved - why are you assuming that someone else must have been involved?
Two people are listed as writing the music and lyrics for a musical play. Why do you assume from that credit that someone else must have been involved? No, you want me to assume that no one else was involved. I don't know that from the credits. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
Oh come on, but that's stretching it.
Cute answer warning:
Let's see - we have a musical play - that involves music and words.
We have a credit - one for music, one for words.
Take the music and words away from a musical play, and what parts are we left with? The interval! Oh, I don't know...maybe we are left with the story, direction, scene structure, etc. As I said before, the writer of a musical play writes more than lyrics and music. If that was all they did, we would have a bunch of actors standing around singing instead of singing and acting. But none of that matters. What matters is what the credit says, not what I believe each person did. I have given a real world example of an OMB credit for a musical. If the Evita credit matched the Sweeney Todd credit, I would have a different opinion. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | It's simply worded differently. They chose to say "by", Evita chose to use "music and lyrics by".
In my eyes, they're treated the same.
And Hal, I'm sorry - but seriously? One song in Evita? Do you honestly think a play with one song would be described as a "musical play"? You seem to be forgetting that the word "musical" is there in the credit. |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
No, you want me to assume that no one else was involved. I don't know that from the credits. Yes you do, because no one else is mentioned! |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
For an OMB for songs it should say "based on Songs By or the Lyrics and Music of ALW and TR".
The credit says its based on the Play Evita, but then does not clearly define the author, IMO. Neither the rules nor the program require what the credit "should say". There's also no requirement that one "know" that the credited names are responsible for all of the content of the OMB source. The program says OMB can come from a song. I think you're setting the bar higher than needed. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
It's simply worded differently. They chose to say "by", Evita chose to use "music and lyrics by".
In my eyes, they're treated the same.
And Hal, I'm sorry - but seriously? One song in Evita? Do you honestly think a play with one song would be described as a "musical play"? You seem to be forgetting that the word "musical" is there in the credit. Yes, I know, I'm stretching here, but I am reading the credits literally. How many songs are required before a play can be called a musical play? I don;t know. Do you? Is this something that I need to know in order to do a profile in DVDP? It shouldn't be, IMHO. I should be able to look at the on-screen credit and compare it to the crew table and determine if it fits. In this case, it does not, IMHO. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
It's simply worded differently. They chose to say "by", Evita chose to use "music and lyrics by".
In my eyes, they're treated the same. I am sorry but it is not "simply worded differently." The word 'by' in the Sweeny Todd credit, with no further qualifier, means that Stephen Sondheim and Hugh Wheeler were responsible for the entire musical. The use of the qualifiers music and lyrics, in Evita, means that Tim Rice and Andrew Lloyd Webber were responsible for those things only. Is it possible that they wrote the entire play? Of course it is but, as I said earlier, that isn't how it is written. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
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