Quoting skipnet50:

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And due to copyright issues I do not want to risk your format since it has been adopted as standard by another suit happy company. So I repeat IF we are to do this YOUR way is not the the way.

Skip

Actually, I was just endorsing your excellent suggestion Skip.  I think it's great.

There is no (and can be no) copyright on punctuation in names.  Sorry Skip, but that dog won't hunt.  They wouldn't even consider it.    I thought I was paranoid, but you're making me feel positively safe and secure among my fellow humans when I read things like that.

From what I can see, suffix punctuation has little to do with personal preference of the actors, but instead seems to be done consistently across a movies credits.  (It it was a personal preference there would be a lot more consitence) It's like choice of font, it's a stylistic choice by the credit guys and has nothing at all do with accuracy.

I haven't seen you offer any reasonable explination of how punctuation that isn't part of the name constitues "accuracy".  If you mean it to be "Exactly like the credits" they aren't and never will be.  (If you want that, make an AVI of the credits and link to your profile.  But keep it local, they're too big down download and not very usefull.  ) If you take it to mean "get the name/spelling right" we can do that and drop the punctuation. 

Again, I would prefer to see it done programatically.  But if not, a simple standardization of name punctuation would save massive effort.  There's siimply no downside.

Quoting Nadja:

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You are kidding, right? You're not seriously suggesting that to standardise without the comma would be to invite lawsuits?

Nadja:

No I am NOT kidding. Lawsuits have been filed over far smaller issues. If you don't see the issue and understand about businesses that engage in this practice, then you don't really know much about business. It's merely a tool used to drive competition out of the market, you force them to channel their resources into defense. And eventually, if it does properely, you can force a company out of business or acquire them if that is what you want. I am not saying I approve of the practice but I am well aware of it,and while some users through stupiditiy, ignorance or both seem uintent on trying to drive Profiler into waters which might garner such a response, I will resist it with all my strength.

Skip

Snark:

I am not going to attempt to read this particular corporate mind. I will say that i used to work for a company in the entertainment business who would not hesitate to sue over something of this nature, si I will not say that they wouldn't. I recognize the very real POSSIBILITY and prefer to steer a course away from trouble, no matter how remote it might be, it's not worth losing the program, just to cater to a user's wishes. IF they wished, I don't believe Invelos could survive an assault. The easy answer is to recognize what they do and do it differently, hence we should use , Jr. That is the proper form of the suffix at any rate.

Skip

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:

Snark:

I am not going to attempt to read this particular corporate mind. I will say that i used to work for a company in the entertainment business who would not hesitate to sue over something of this nature, si I will not say that they wouldn't. I recognize the very real POSSIBILITY and prefer to steer a course away from trouble, no matter how remote it might be, it's not worth losing the program, just to cater to a user's wishes. IF they wished, I don't believe Invelos could survive an assault. The easy answer is to recognize what they do and do it differently, hence we should use , Jr. That is the proper form of the suffix at any rate.

I don't for a minute believe that there is a company out there that is that idiotic.  I've been doing IT and database work for my entire professional life and I have seen silly lawsuits, but nothing that approaches the idea suing over punctuation.

Any legal repercussions would be Ken's to bear so it would be up to him to assess the risk.

I would certainly not oppose standardizing with a comma or anything else if it's clearly spelled out.  No punctuation seems simpler, but anything will work.

Quoting mdnitoil:

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Personally, I could care less about whether punctuation is included in the base name or not.  I still believe, regardless of the base name chosen, that we have to alias that name to capture the actual credits.  Therefore accuracy is not even an issue here.

The only issue is how the base name is derived.  Now, using the CLT is great for things like do we use Bob or Robert.  Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that we end up with a discussion thread for most of these base names on a per-person basis?  That's because we can't even agree on how to interpret the silly CLT results.

My whole point is, if we simply decide that suffix names always/never use punctuation in the base name, we can at least mitigate these particular threads on what the common name is.  We've got enough threads on real name issues to not have to waste time on silly crap like this.

There's no slippery slope here.  We're forced to pick a base name for every single actor in the database, theoretically.  The problem is that the tool we're given is muddy at best.  At least for some chunk of names, we can come up with a simple clear concise method of picking a base name that removes this CLT interpretation mess.  Heck, if we had this simple direction, this entire thread wouldn't have even been started.

Abolutely.  It we can simplify we should and when it comes to punctuation it should be a non-issue, the question is how to get there.

Quoting Snark:

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Quoting skipnet50:

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Snark:

I am not going to attempt to read this particular corporate mind. I will say that i used to work for a company in the entertainment business who would not hesitate to sue over something of this nature, si I will not say that they wouldn't. I recognize the very real POSSIBILITY and prefer to steer a course away from trouble, no matter how remote it might be, it's not worth losing the program, just to cater to a user's wishes. IF they wished, I don't believe Invelos could survive an assault. The easy answer is to recognize what they do and do it differently, hence we should use , Jr. That is the proper form of the suffix at any rate.

I don't for a minute believe that there is a company out there that is that idiotic.  I've been doing IT and database work for my entire professional life and I have seen silly lawsuits, but nothing that approaches the idea suing over punctuation.

Any legal repercussions would be Ken's to bear so it would be up to him to assess the risk.

I would certainly not oppose standardizing with a comma or anything else if it's clearly spelled out.  No punctuation seems simpler, but anything will work.

Quoting mdnitoil:

Quote:
Personally, I could care less about whether punctuation is included in the base name or not.  I still believe, regardless of the base name chosen, that we have to alias that name to capture the actual credits.  Therefore accuracy is not even an issue here.

The only issue is how the base name is derived.  Now, using the CLT is great for things like do we use Bob or Robert.  Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that we end up with a discussion thread for most of these base names on a per-person basis?  That's because we can't even agree on how to interpret the silly CLT results.

My whole point is, if we simply decide that suffix names always/never use punctuation in the base name, we can at least mitigate these particular threads on what the common name is.  We've got enough threads on real name issues to not have to waste time on silly crap like this.

There's no slippery slope here.  We're forced to pick a base name for every single actor in the database, theoretically.  The problem is that the tool we're given is muddy at best.  At least for some chunk of names, we can come up with a simple clear concise method of picking a base name that removes this CLT interpretation mess.  Heck, if we had this simple direction, this entire thread wouldn't have even been started.

Abolutely.  It we can simplify we should and when it comes to punctuation it should be a non-issue, the question is how to get there.

LOL, snark, the stories I could tell you about the seemingly stupid things companies will sue over.

As for ken assessing the risk, yes it is ultimately his responsibility, but I also think it behooves me as a user to not suggest that which mighjt endanger the company. Perhaps you don't care about the program or the company, but i do, I don't want to rsisk losing the program. I am also very conservative in my actions. you will find NO illegal films in my library, you will also NOT find that I contribute to the Headshot database all for Copyright issues. What you seem to fail to comprehend, and others as well, is that we are all linked through this program. While any potential issues relating to a given user and authorities for Copyright carry a low probability, the POSSIBILITY exists, and should one of users find himself in the sights of the authorities, then we are all at risk. I am not personally concerned about it, they would find nothing here, but do I want the headache...NO, I don't...so I am very judicious in avoiding it for myself and the rest of my friends in the Community.

I have seen these things myself, and been forced to turn over records on my clients and so forth before, all because of ONE idiot. That idiot won't be ME...EVER.

Skip

Okay.  We'll just let the CLT be the thought police on this one. 

Mind you, I acknowledged that the CLT should be the deciding factor on determing what a name is, I merely suggest standardizing on punctuation...and just for the common name at that.  Wouldn't want to make things too easy for users.

Thought police.

I'm pretty sure I'll be shaking my head over that one for at least the next week.

Quoting skipnet50:

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Hal<

They may not be able to. But that's not the point. They could lose legally and still win, all they would have to do is force ken to spend lots of money defending himself and perhaps run Invelos into the ground. are you not familiar with predatory business practices. So wheteher they could win legally or not is not relevant. Do we want to risk it...I DON'T, and i would hope that ken would understand that as well.

I am stunned that i have to actually explain this concept, it's obvious for anyone who has even the slightest understanding of business.

If it weren't for a certain company being well-known to be suit happy and predatory, I wouldn't care one way or the other.

Skip

Have you ever heard of frivolous law suits?

This would certainly qualify.

I am stunned that people don;t understand this concept! 

Quoting midnitoil:

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Let me add here that in my opinion, this entire thread has almost nothing to do with selecting a common name.  We already agree on what the person's name is.  The only issue is one of formatting.  Since Profiler does not handle formatting issues very well, it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to come up with a simple set of formatting rules.  In my mind that's all we're discussing here.  Beyond that, these formatting rules are only for the common name.  The integrity of the credits are still maintained through aliasing.  Using the CLT to make formatting decisions on a per-person basis is both silly and unnecessary.  We end up having to open a discussion thread on each person because somebody inevitably has a problem with the name chosen.  The fact that the CLT is both inconsistent and ever-changing simply adds additional confusion where none need exist

You cut right to the heart of it.  The CLT is an awkward solution at best and is completely irrelevent in this circumstance.  Consistency in punctuation will simplify a number of cases that are NOT in ANY way ambiguous.

"Robert Downey Jr." = "Robert Downey, Jr."

Same person.  Same name. 

There's no reason to complicate this needlessly.




Quoting skipnet50:

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I agree, Hal. but that doesn't prevent ken from potentially having to spend money to defend himself, nor will it being declared frivolous at some point help him recover what he did spend. You don't understand anything about predatory business practices..

Skip

This discussion has gone off into absurdity.  You can worry about frivilous lawsuits all you want Skip, but I think you'll find it difficult to convince anyone else that it's a serious concern.

Midnitoil's post really cuts to the heart of the matter.  It's not an issue of accuracy or legality, it's a common sense thing.