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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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What title to use? |
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| Author |
Message |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 2,366 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting whispering: Quote:
Thanks to everyone for the responses. You're welcome.  | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,744 |
| | Posted: | | | | I may be nit-picking here, but in my point of view the rules are quite clear on that. http://www.invelos.com/dvdpro/contributions/Rules.aspx?display=titlesUse the title from the front cover.That is the top rule, in fact it is the only rule to where the title is be taken from. All else is just clarification and helping in formatting the title (possessives, capitalization). That is the reason these points are indented, they refer to the one and only top rule. Take the title from the front cover. The rule that handles multiple languages is a sub-sub-rule of that. It says: If the title appears in multiple languages, use the title that matches the language of the locality and do not include an alternate title It doesn't say "take the multiple titles anywhere from the cover". So which title is it talking about? The front cover of course. Why? Because it is a sub-sub-rule to the front cover rule. | | | Karsten
DVD Collectors Online
 | | | | Last edited: by DJ Doena |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 844 |
| | Posted: | | | | As Skip says, the rules are clear...I am not sure why he is mis-interpreting them however. DJ's analysis is spot-on. And the poll is giving the correct response per those rules. | | | | Last edited: by bob9000 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting bob9000: Quote:
As Skip says, the rules are clear...I am not sure why he is mis-interpreting them however. DJ's analysis is spot-on. And the poll is giving the correct response per those rules. No, it is not spot on. Back when the rule was, 'Take the title from the film credits', we used localized credits that were not taken from the film credits. Why, now that the rule says to use the title from the front cover, is it different? The 'clarification' did not change, only the location where the title is supposed to come from.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,744 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Back when the rule was, 'Take the title from the film credits', we used localized credits that were not taken from the film credits. Why, now that the rule says to use the title from the front cover, is it different?
The 'clarification' did not change, only the location where the title is supposed to come from. It would help to see the old rules to comment on that, otherwise it's a bit of guesswork what the old rules wanted or didn't want to say. But the source of the title was changed from "film credits" to "front cover" if I understood you correctly. Why should the old "fallback scenarios" apply to a whole new situation? The argument "back in the days we did ..." is weak IMHO. Back in the days we did enter the word "Episode" in a certain set of titles. We don't do that anymore. | | | Karsten
DVD Collectors Online
| | | | Last edited: by DJ Doena |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting DJ Doena: Quote:
It would help to see the old rules to comment on that, otherwise it's a bit of guesswork what the old rules wanted or didn't want to say. Ask and ye shall receive. Doug has the old rules listed here. Please note, this will open to the 'Title' portion, but the rest of the rules are there. Quote:
But the source of the title was changed from "film credits" to "front cover" if I understood you correctly. Why should the old "fallback scenarios" apply to a whole new situation? I think a better question would be, why shouldn't it apply? The rule was changed from, "Use the title from the film's credits." to "Use the title from the front cover." This portion, "If the title appears in multiple languages, use the title that matches the language of the locality and do not include an alternate title ( for instance in another language)." has not changed. Since it hasn't changed, why should we change the way we handle localized titles of foreign films? Quote:
The argument "back in the days we did ..." is weak IMHO. Back in the days we did enter the word "Episode" in a certain set of titles. We don't do that anymore. Yes, but that word 'episode' was in the film credits, which is where the title came from at the time. That word is not on the cover, which is where we get the title now. But this is a non-issue as it has nothing to do with titles in multiple languages. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Boy am I glad I took a nap. Havin fun, Unicus?  Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting bob9000: Quote:
As Skip says, the rules are clear...I am not sure why he is mis-interpreting them however. DJ's analysis is spot-on. And the poll is giving the correct response per those rules. Tellme, Bob, just what layer of espertise are you coming from. Did you have some involvement in the Rules development that i am unaware of. I did, Unicus did...you? That would seem to be very bold and brazzen statement that you know more than people who WERE involved in the process. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,744 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting DJ Doena:
Quote:
It would help to see the old rules to comment on that, otherwise it's a bit of guesswork what the old rules wanted or didn't want to say.
Ask and ye shall receive. Doug has the old rules listed here. Please note, this will open to the 'Title' portion, but the rest of the rules are there. According to these rules it was never allowed to enter the actual DVD cover title in any case (no matter where on the cover it could have been found). The only exception would be a multiple language title in the film credits. But I actually found the loophole. It's not in the title section, it's in the original title section. Foreign Films: The Original Title field will contain the original title for the main feature in the country of origin. i.e. A German DVD release for a film originally produced in the United States would have the German title in the Title field and the English title in the Original Title Field.(underlining by me). That would actually allow the usage of the finnish title if I understand it correctly. But I see this as a loophole/backdoor since it adds a rule to a different section without context. What german title is it referring to? What would happen if the film's credits title and the back cover title would be different but both be german? On a personal note: If I were a finnish user I still wouldn't call that DVD with it's finnish title. The more "hidden" a title is the less sense makes it to use it. Where would one start to look for a title? The front cover, the spine - yes. But on the back cover in some itsy-witsy-tiny table - certainly not. Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Tellme, Bob, just what layer of espertise are you coming from. Did you have some involvement in the Rules development that i am unaware of. I did, Unicus did...you? That would seem to be very bold and brazzen statement that you know more than people who WERE involved in the process. Meaning you take responsibilty for that rather poor wording? btw: Why is "for non-english titles" a sub-rule to "for english titles" and everything after that, too? | | | Karsten
DVD Collectors Online
| | | | Last edited: by DJ Doena |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Yes, I do. Though I don't consider it to be poorly worded.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 844 |
| | Posted: | | | | Process shmocess....the rules appear quite black and white in the instance. We are supposed to go on what the alleged "intent" was? I think not. I looked at the old rules and while a little more vague, they do not indicate that a foreign language title taken from a source other than the credits would be acceptable. If the foreign language title was listed on a website somewhere then would that be acceptable? Its not on the front cover (or credits by the old rules) either and is also not specifically prohibited in the clarification subset.
KISS as they say (not the rock group). The simple straightforward answer is use the title from the front cover. If the title on the front cover is in more than one language, use the language for the locality you are contributing to. And surprise, surprise, that is exactly what the rules say to do. | | | | Last edited: by bob9000 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | That's is NOT what that part of the Rule says as Unicus pointed out, Bob, deliberately so.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 3,197 |
| | Posted: | | | | Now suddenly saying that we no longer have to take the title from the front cover does not help to clear up anything at all. No wonder things are confused around here... | | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 844 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
That's is NOT what that part of the Rule says as Unicus pointed out, Bob, deliberately so.
Skip In what way does it not say that? It seems like pretty plain english to me. Unless the rules offer alternate and acceptable sources for the foreign title, then we are left with simply the front cover. Otherwise the title could literally come from anywhere. Can you tell me where in the rules it gives us the acceptable source of a foreign title? If I am missing it I would like to know. | | | | Last edited: by bob9000 |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,744 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
That's is NOT what that part of the Rule says as Unicus pointed out, Bob, deliberately so. What does it say? The words are If the title appears in multiple languages, use the title that matches the language of the locality and do not include an alternate title ( for instance in another language).If it is not referring (solely) to the front cover, where is the title allowed to appear in multiple language? Either there is a restriction to the front cover or there is no restriction at all. "On the front cover" can be viewed as "inherited from the superior rule". An "implied restriction" to "anywhere on the cover" cannot be found in the rules even with goodwill. On the entire rule section (title, editon, original title) the word "cover" appears five times. Four times preceded by "front", one time preceded by "back". But "back cover" specifically applies to possessives (and there only to the credit block) | | | Karsten
DVD Collectors Online
| | | | Last edited: by DJ Doena |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Does the title appear in multiple languages? Yes it does. The fact that they happen to be on the back of the case doesn't matter. Yes, the rules says to 'use the title from the front cover', but they go on to list a bunch of clarifications to that rule. This is one of those clarifications. As usual, the same sentence can be read in many ways, and the "correct" interpretation is left to the Screeners, not to us. Maybe I'm wroing, but I can just say how I understand it: the rule states to take the Title from the front cover, so I believe that any further instruction refers to that source and that source only, unless specified otherwise. When the rule wants us to take in consideration the back cover (for instance, to verify possessives), the back cover is expressly mentioned. Not so for multiple languages. Having said that, I also noticed that the Screeners are somewhat pragmatical when it comes to specific situations. As Tarantino said, if the users of a certain Locality are happy with the localized title and the Screeners allow it, then "just continue to submit profiles as they are done right now and everyone will be happy". Skipnet50: [...] Quote:
the Rules are clear, the poll is WRONG. But then there are numerous users for which the Rules mean nothing.  Isn't it funny that you decide that a "poll is WRONG" just because you say so, but then you use another poll as only reference for a contribution (even the removal of freshly added data) when you like the results of that poll?  | | | | -- Enry | | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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