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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | I don't think that the existence of stage names for some people requires that titles be considered part of a name for others. I move all sirs, lords, senators, mayors, misses, etc to the Credited As field. Needless to say, I agree with Hal on this. It would be nice to have rule clarification here. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | I think we're going to have to be necessarily flexible here. I mean, what about animals? Are we really going to have Stripes the Wonder Dog as Stripes// credit as? Okay, I made that one up, but you get the general idea.  |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote:
I think we're going to have to be necessarily flexible here. I mean, what about animals? Are we really going to have Stripes the Wonder Dog as Stripes// credit as? Okay, I made that one up, but you get the general idea. Oh, I get in big trouble when it comes to crediting animals and inanimate objects.   | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 3,436 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Using "Senator" as part of the name in order to avoid having to use BY's to distinguish between two actors with the same name.....hmmmmm....where is that in the Rules?
It must be in the same place where it says you can leave his title out...even though it was included in the credits.  I don't think Hal wanted to "leave the title out". That can still be kept in the Credited As field | | | Achim [諾亞信； Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan.
Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative) |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Once again, Achim. You and others are COMPLETELY missing the point. The alias system is based upon Common Name, that is determined by the population of the various name possibilities. If we ignore them as you are essentially suggesting then our population data is faulty and we can NEVER come up with a correct answer. As Credited HAS got to be CORRECT in order for the Alias system to function as Ken wants it to.
Recently a name came to light that was yielding erroneous results because a number of the various titles had improperly entered data. I am also reminded of another suggestion which has been made in the past that I don't believe is viable and that is one single cast and crew list for every copy of a film regardless of UPC or Region/Locality. Since we key on UPC #/Disc ID, how are we to vote on richie's (example) copy of a title and he has a different UPC# from mine, I am never going to see it to be able to vote on it or vice versa. it's a nice idea but it simply won't work.
This really isn't that difficult. There are no shortcuts to data entry, assuming that we don't want an end result that is just OK but filled with errors. It must be built one step at a time, else everybody's usability is sacrificed for the benefit of those who want to take shortcuts. Usability is noit a function related directly to the Online, we all have our own ideas as to exactly what usability means to us relative to our Local, but with an inaccurate database then everyone's idea of usability is compromised.
The constant word parsing toi try and interpret things only hurts the process. I have said many times that I do not have anywhere near the problems that I see everyone else having. One user today alluded to the that probably being because I have more experience in dealing with Cast and Crew data, and the rest of the data than most other users. If I accept that premise then just maybe it would be advisable to listen once in awhile, it just might prove beneficial to all of us, as opposed to the baiting and so forth aimed at me that accomplishes very little, other than leave a very bad taste in my mouth relative to some users. If you don't like part of the truth, trust me you would hate the whole truth even more.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
I don't think that the existence of stage names for some people requires that titles be considered part of a name for others. I didn't say it did but, a stage name does differ from the persons name. If what Hal says is correct, all of them must be entered with a credited as. Quote:
I move all sirs, lords, senators, mayors, misses, etc to the Credited As field. Needless to say, I agree with Hal on this. It would be nice to have rule clarification here. That is fine for your local db but there is no basis, in the rules, for doing it in the online. We copy what is in the credits. We are not allowed to pick and choose what we will and won't include. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
I don't think that the existence of stage names for some people requires that titles be considered part of a name for others.
I didn't say it did And Hal didn't say anything about stage names yet you told him what must be done about stage names due to his statement about titles. Welcome to the flip side. Quote:
but, a stage name does differ from the persons name. If what Hal says is correct, all of them must be entered with a credited as. I think we're capable of making the distinction, but I understand we won't agree on what the current rule calls for in terms of what a name is. Quote:
Quote:
I move all sirs, lords, senators, mayors, misses, etc to the Credited As field. Needless to say, I agree with Hal on this. It would be nice to have rule clarification here.
That is fine for your local db but there is no basis, in the rules, for doing it in the online. We copy what is in the credits. We are not allowed to pick and choose what we will and won't include. I know what "we" are supposed to do. In case I wasn't clear enough, I was referring to my local db. That said, as Achim pointed out, the idea is not to exclude anything but rather to record it only in the Credited As field, thereby keeping the name field for names. You have repeated that the rule doesn't allow us to leave out the title; however, no one is saying that. Bill Bradley credited as Senator Bill Bradley doesn't leave anything out. It puts the name in the name field and a full description of the credit in the credited as field. To me, the rule directs us to put the name in the name field. I understand that without a clarification that some, such as yourself, will say that "Senator" is part of the name while others, including myself, don't see titles as part of names. (We had this same discussion over Native American names. ) It's sort of along the line of Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds. Some see the title as including the possessive ("we copy what is in the credits") while others don't. The "we copy what is in the credits" concept doesn't provide the definition of what is to be copied, at least not to the satisfaction of many. It took a rule clarification to dictate what was (and what wasn't) part of the title. I think the same sort of clarification is needed here for names. We're not going to convince each other to change our minds most likely. We have the affiliation exclusion for names. Before we had the affiliation exclusion, the forum discussed whether affiliations were part of the name or not. There was no solution without a rule clarification and there won't be in this case. Until then, fear not. I'm not contributing names data at this time.  | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | James:
Not you specifically, but the idea you refer to to. Don't you understand that that thinking is making a WRECK of the Db Online.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Be as it may, I think changing the "Credited As" parsing from "Senator / Bill / Bradley" to ""Senator Bill // Bradley" is an improvement for the database, anyway. I hope we all agree on that. I see that as step 1: "Credited As" data exactly as in credits using the right parsing. I submitted that change and as of now it's getting Yes votes. The Screeners have the last word of course. Then we could discuss whether a step 2 is necessary, that is to enter a linking name, and what that would be. However, I am glad I started this thread: interesting discussion and good arguments both sides  I just hope this will help the Powers That Be to devise some clarification on the topic. | | | | -- Enry |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
His name has never been Senator Bill Bradley. His name is Bill Bradley and his name is preceded by a title of Senator. Senator is NOT part of his name!
Let me be a little clearer then...his CREDITED name is 'Senetor Bill Bradley'. The rule say: "For any film with standard credits, take the actor information from the end credits only, with names and roles listed exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited."
Quote:
Using "Senator" as part of the name in order to avoid having to use BY's to distinguish between two actors with the same name.....hmmmmm....where is that in the Rules?
It must be in the same place where it says you can leave his title out...even though it was included in the credits. You continue to ignore the fact that the Rules instruct us to use his "name", not his name and title. The "credited as" field is used to enter "exactly what he is credited as" in the film credits. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Except that's not what the Rules say, Skip.
Direct quote from the Rules:
"Use the "Credited As" field where the person's name differs from the credited name."
His name differs from the way he is credited. There is no ambiguity here whatsoever!
Please show me where in the Rules it says that a person has to be credited two or more different ways BEFORE you can use the"credited as" feature!
And the "discussion is over" because you say so???? I think not!
If that is what the rule means, we all have a lot of work to do. Right off the top of my head, I can think of the following cases where "the person's name differs from the credited name."
Marion Morrison (credited as John Wayne)
Dennis Buchinsky (credited as Charles Bronson)
Ramón Estévez (credited as Martin Sheen)
Carlos Estévez (credited as Charlie Sheen)
Cedric Kyles (credited as Cedric the Entertainer)
Dana Owens (credited as Queen Latifah)
O'Shea Jackson (credited as Ice Cube)
If I looked real hard, I am sure I could come up with a lot more.  This is a huge RED HERRING. These people do not have titles included in fornt of their "names". Try sticking to the topic at hand! | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Once again, Achim. You and others are COMPLETELY missing the point. The alias system is based upon Common Name, that is determined by the population of the various name possibilities. If we ignore them as you are essentially suggesting then our population data is faulty and we can NEVER come up with a correct answer. As Credited HAS got to be CORRECT in order for the Alias system to function as Ken wants it to.
Recently a name came to light that was yielding erroneous results because a number of the various titles had improperly entered data. I am also reminded of another suggestion which has been made in the past that I don't believe is viable and that is one single cast and crew list for every copy of a film regardless of UPC or Region/Locality. Since we key on UPC #/Disc ID, how are we to vote on richie's (example) copy of a title and he has a different UPC# from mine, I am never going to see it to be able to vote on it or vice versa. it's a nice idea but it simply won't work.
This really isn't that difficult. There are no shortcuts to data entry, assuming that we don't want an end result that is just OK but filled with errors. It must be built one step at a time, else everybody's usability is sacrificed for the benefit of those who want to take shortcuts. Usability is noit a function related directly to the Online, we all have our own ideas as to exactly what usability means to us relative to our Local, but with an inaccurate database then everyone's idea of usability is compromised.
The constant word parsing toi try and interpret things only hurts the process. I have said many times that I do not have anywhere near the problems that I see everyone else having. One user today alluded to the that probably being because I have more experience in dealing with Cast and Crew data, and the rest of the data than most other users. If I accept that premise then just maybe it would be advisable to listen once in awhile, it just might prove beneficial to all of us, as opposed to the baiting and so forth aimed at me that accomplishes very little, other than leave a very bad taste in my mouth relative to some users. If you don't like part of the truth, trust me you would hate the whole truth even more.
Skip It is you who are missing the point Skip. The "NAme Field" is for just that----the actors NAME. It is not for the actors name plus any title that they may have carried at any point in their lifetime. The title goes in the "Credited as" field to reflect exactly how they were credited in the film. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Hal: How do you read this sentence from the Rules? Quote:
Use the "Credited As" field where the person's name differs from the credited name. What is "the credited name", if the credits show: "Senator Bill Bradley"? | | | | -- Enry | | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Certain titles are held for a lifetime.
In US politics, all of which, save two, are such. After you serve as City Councilmember, Mayor, State Senator, State Assembly member, Congress member, Senator, Ambassador, Cabinet member (Secretary), Governor, Judge, Justice, etc.... you retain that honor forever. On the other hand, it is incorrect to refer to a former President or Vice President with the "President" or "Vice President" title, unless preceeded by "former". There is only one President of the United States; all other living ones are correctly called by their highest held position outside that one. Thus, Governor Clinton, Ambassador Bush, Governor Reagan, Governor Carter, Congressman Ford, Senator Nixon, etc. All can be referred to as former President, but not as President (and be politically correct). Same goes for Vice President.
Only one at a time for each... we do not have more than one President (and Vice President).
On the other (other) hand, when writing history, referring to acts, circumstances, and everything else during a person's presidency, it would be correct to refer to President Johnson, President Lincoln... while they were in office.
At least that is what I was taught in history and journalism classes...
All of which has been more honored in the breach over the past couple of decades. | | | If it wasn't for bad taste, I wouldn't have no taste at all.
Cliff | | | | Last edited: by VibroCount |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
Hal:
How do you read this sentence from the Rules?
Quote:
Use the "Credited As" field where the person's name differs from the credited name.
What is "the credited name", if the credits show: "Senator Bill Bradley"? The "credited name" is "Senator Bill Bradley", therefore it belongs in the "Credited As" field. His "name" (without title included since it is not part of his name) is "Bill Bradley" and goes in the "Name" field. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting VibroCount: Quote:
Certain titles are held for a lifetime.
In US politics, all of which, save two, are such. After you serve as City Councilmember, Mayor, State Senator, State Assembly member, Congress member, Senator, Ambassador, Cabinet member (Secretary), Governor, Judge, Justice, etc.... you retain that honor forever. On the other hand, it is incorrect to refer to a former President or Vice President with the "President" or "Vice President" title, unless preceeded by "former". There is only one President of the United States; all other living ones are correctly called by their highest held position outside that one. Thus, Governor Clinton, Ambassador Bush, Governor Reagan, Governor Carter, Congressman Ford, Senator Nixon, etc. All can be referred to as former President, but not as President (and be politically correct). Same goes for Vice President.
Only one at a time for each... we do not have more than one President (and Vice President).
On the other (other) hand, when writing history, referring to acts, circumstances, and everything else during a person's presidency, it would be correct to refer to President Johnson, President Lincoln... while they were in office.
At least that is what I was taught in history and journalism classes...
All of which has been more honored in the breach over the past couple of decades. You might want to inform the many commentators of this. Just this morning I heard numeerous references on radio talk shows to "former-Senator" so and so. Referring to them as Senator so-and-so is merely a cultural practice and courtesy. | | | | Hal |
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