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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,807 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
The 'intent', at least for most people I have talked to, is taken from the part of the rule that you left out:
Genres are often a matter of personal interpretation, which can differ among users. If your personal preference for Genre differs from the main database, you can store the information you prefer in your local database and lock the Genre field from further updates.
That, combined with the rest of the rule, gives an indication that Genres shouldn't be changed unless they are blatantly wrong. Your mileage, of course, will vary. I respect your interpretation, I even say that it might be right, but I am not fully convinced of it. The problem is: where does the Online Genres list come from? It comes from a user contribution, of course. Thus, Genres can be contributed to the Online db just like any other field, even if they are "often a matter of personal interpretation". The <if your personal preference differs from the main database, keep it local> drill applies to any field in DVDP, not just Genres. That wouldn't be a reason not to ever submit any change to any field, would it?. I understand a word of caution is most necessary when dealing with Genres, more than with other "ordinary" fields, so I think that the intent of that part of the Rule is caution, and I agree with that. But I can't see a total ban there. If Genres were a *completely* personal choice, why put them in the Online db in the first place? If Ken just wanted that Genres shouldn't be changed unless blatantly wrong, why don't say it that way? What does the word "only" stand for, in the sentence "contributions that only change..."? And, anyway, if all the owners of a DVD agree that the Genres list should be changed, why shouldn't they go for it? | | | -- Enry | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote: I respect your interpretation, I even say that it might be right, but I am not fully convinced of it. I did say your mileage would vary. Quote: The problem is: where does the Online Genres list come from? It comes from a user contribution, of course. Thus, Genres can be contributed to the Online db just like any other field, even if they are "often a matter of personal interpretation". The <if your personal preference differs from the main database, keep it local> drill applies to any field in DVDP, not just Genres. That wouldn't be a reason not to ever submit any change to any field, would it?. Two points: This is the only place, I can find in the rules, where the 'personal preference' drill is actually included in a rule.This is the only piece of data that is 100% subjective.Quote: I understand a word of caution is most necessary when dealing with Genres, more than with other "ordinary" fields, so I think that the intent of that part of the Rule is caution, and I agree with that. But I can't see a total ban there. If Genres were a *completely* personal choice, why put them in the Online db in the first place? If Ken just wanted that Genres shouldn't be changed unless blatantly wrong, why don't say it that way? What does the word "only" stand for, in the sentence "contributions that only change..."? It depends on what you believe the word 'only' applies to. Do you believe it applies to a contribution where the only piece of data submited is the genre field? Or, do you believe it means if you are only changing or reordering the genres...rather than adding a missing one? I can read it both ways but, that's pretty much what I do. Quote: And, anyway, if all the owners of a DVD agree that the Genres list should be changed, why shouldn't they go for it? I don't use genres, so really don't care either way. I was just offering an explanation as to why people might see it the other way. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,480 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote: This is the only piece of data that is 100% subjective.
As practiced here, that's probably true. However, in theory, they are definable. But our friend JonM (formerly najemikon) has given up that cause I believe. I always agreed with him on this point. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,807 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote: I did say your mileage would vary. Agree with that. Quote: Two points: This is the only place, I can find in the rules, where the 'personal preference' drill is actually included in a rule. Point taken. Quote: This is the only piece of data that is 100% subjective. Yet if most users subjectively think Genres are so and so, that's what most users objectively think Quote: It depends on what you believe the word 'only' applies to. Do you believe it applies to a contribution where the only piece of data submited is the genre field? Or, do you believe it means if you are only changing or reordering the genres...rather than adding a missing one?
I can read it both ways but, that's pretty much what I do. True, you could read it both ways. Quote: And, anyway, if all the owners of a DVD agree that the Genres list should be changed, why shouldn't they go for it?
Quote: I don't use genres, so really don't care either way. I was just offering an explanation as to why people might see it the other way.
Fair enough, but what would you reply to my question? If everybody agrees with a change, what harm is done? | | | -- Enry | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote: Fair enough, but what would you reply to my question? If everybody agrees with a change, what harm is done? None at all...until the next guy decides he wants to throw his preference up for a vote. I understand, because the first person who contributes a brand new profile has chosen the genres on his own, the desire to allow for changes. However, the changes aren't what bothers me, it is the potential for multiple people to try and get their prefered changes to go through, that gives me pause. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,692 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote: Quoting EnryWiki:
Quote: Fair enough, but what would you reply to my question? If everybody agrees with a change, what harm is done?
None at all...until the next guy decides he wants to throw his preference up for a vote.
I understand, because the first person who contributes a brand new profile has chosen the genres on his own, the desire to allow for changes. However, the changes aren't what bothers me, it is the potential for multiple people to try and get their prefered changes to go through, that gives me pause. Agreed. Because its subjective. Just because a change goes through doesn't mean that everybody else was gagging for you to make that change. If the change was included with other changes then they could all have locked down their genres and just want the other changes. I've locked all my genres. | | | Paul |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,321 |
| Posted: | | | | I agree with Pete that having it is nice to be able to tell the difference between a theatrical movie and a TV movie. I just love knowing that kind of stuff.
Beyond that, I don't care what happens with the Genre. I use tags to track all this kind of stuff. And because tags work so well for this kind of data, I see no point in maintaining my tags and the genres. So I accept whatever the genres are and pretty much ignore them. Perhaps others use them differently than I do (maybe running reports of Genres for example), but for my needs, they're completely useless. I wouldn't care (or notice) if they disappeared completely. | | | Get the CSVExport and Database Query plug-ins here. Create fake parent profiles to organize your collection. | | | Last edited: by Mark Harrison |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 27 |
| Posted: | | | | I use genre as a sorting tool. Because I store my DVDs alphabetically by genre. They only have one listed in my local database.
I don't care what everyone wants in the online database, unless it is blatently wrong, like comedy for The Exorcist (just an example, don't think anyone ever tried to slap that label on that movie). If there is a genre added or changed in a profile, it usually doesn't affect how I vote on a profile.The validity of the rest of the information changed or added determines how I vote. Also if they sourced and how they sourced the data. I agree that genres are highly subjective and, for the most part shouldn't be changed or reordered in the online database. If there's room, go ahead and add one (if it makes sense), but to reorder or change them should only be done locally.
For me, if it is a series (M*A*S*H), a miniseries (Revelations) or a 30, 60 or 90 minute TV special (The Carol Burnett Show: Show Stoppers), I will label it as television and store it that way. Made for TV or cable movies, I list with the genre that make sense to me and store them that way.
This lets me run reports by genre and use that to inventory my collection every 6-8 months. This is when I find stuff that is missing, stored wrong or has slipped past me with multiple genres attached.
If knowing if a movie is made for TV or not becomes important to me, I will use tags. I currently use tags very sparingly. There is more than enough information contained in the profile. |
| Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,807 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote: Quoting EnryWiki:
Quote: Fair enough, but what would you reply to my question? If everybody agrees with a change, what harm is done?
None at all...until the next guy decides he wants to throw his preference up for a vote.
Maybe. In that case, others can vote No if they feel it's wrong. On the long run, the Genres list will be what most users think it is, not just what one person thinks. Quote: I understand, because the first person who contributes a brand new profile has chosen the genres on his own, the desire to allow for changes. You hit the nail on the head. If you just leave it to the personal preference of the first contributor, the Online Genres list ends up being completely useless. Indeed, many of you don't use it at all. Quote: However, the changes aren't what bothers me, it is the potential for multiple people to try and get their prefered changes to go through, that gives me pause. I understand that, but I also wonder what's the use of an Online field if you can't try and make it better if you feel it's wrong. "Better" or "wrong", I mean, according to the belief of the majority, not my belief or your belief. Bottom line: I think the majority's opinion would be more valuable data than just one person's opinion. | | | -- Enry | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Enry:
You put too much faith in the majority, there are too many users who vote Yes to ANYTHING, even if it blatantly violates the Rules. For example, you can put up a list of IMDb data (which the Rules forbid PERIOD) and some people will vote yes, claiming that something is better than nothing..
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote: Quoting Unicus69:
Quote: However, the changes aren't what bothers me, it is the potential for multiple people to try and get their prefered changes to go through, that gives me pause.
I understand that, but I also wonder what's the use of an Online field if you can't try and make it better if you feel it's wrong. "Better" or "wrong", I mean, according to the belief of the majority, not my belief or your belief.
Bottom line: I think the majority's opinion would be more valuable data than just one person's opinion. Maybe I wasn't completely clear. I don't have a problem with the majority opinion. My issue is the following scenario: User A submits a new profile that includes genres and it is accepted. User B comes along and decides the genres are wrong, so submits a change. It gets accepted. User C comes along and decides the genres are wrong, so submits a change. It gets voted down. User D comes along and decides the genres are wrong, so submits a change. It also gets voted down. User E comes along and decides the genres are wrong, so submits a change. Surprise, surprise, it gets accepted. User B comes back and wonders why the genres are now different and submits a change... I am concerned about the potential of having to see the same profiles submitted over and over and over again. At some point, a line has to be drawn. I don't know where that line should be drawn, but it has to be drawn somewhere. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,117 |
| Posted: | | | | IMDB has genres listed for each of its movies and can be used as a guide. Its main genre categories closely match the ones in DVD Profiler. I do not see a simple lookup for comparison from there as data scraping; it's not like taking all the cast and crew. For those who dislike the IMDB idea, I'm sure there are other retailer sites which categorize movies by genre and can be used as a source reference when making a genre-changing contribution. | | | Last edited: by Doombear |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 810 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Mark Harrison: Quote: I agree with Pete that having it is nice to be able to tell the difference between a theatrical movie and a TV movie. I just love knowing that kind of stuff.
... What is a 'TV' movie? If it is made for a pay service like HBO, is it still a 'TV' movie? What about Spanish movies? Almost all of them list a TV network as part of the production credits. I have seen the same in many French productions. In fact many films from Europe list one or more TV networks in the credits. At what point do we draw the line? pdf | | | Paul Francis San Juan Capistrano, CA, USA |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,117 |
| Posted: | | | | I consider a TV movie as one which premiered on a television network rather than at a movie theater. A USA-made film without an MPAA logo at the end credits might be a clue. But foreign films could be much tougher to determine. | | | Last edited: by Doombear |
| Registered: July 15, 2007 | Posts: 159 |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,459 |
| Posted: | | | | Sounds like that's more of a translation issue. Sounds like "Suspense/Thriller" has been translated into "Suspense/Horror" in Norwegian. There is a separate "Horror" genre in the english list, it's in my Norwegian language list as "Skrekk", but as I don't know any Norwegian I don't know how accurate that is. | | | Last edited: by northbloke |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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