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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Parsing of Chinese/HK names |
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| Author |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
Being a Brit, I've always interpreted the phrase "last name" to mean surname, or family name. That's why I preferred putting the asian family names in the same field, even though they would place this first. That way, when you look at the database you would find all the family names in the same field, which may be an advantage to some people. And you are right here. Of course you have to adapt the "credited as" field accordingly. (But I guess this is obvious.) |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
And you are right here. Of course you have to adapt the "credited as" field accordingly. (But I guess this is obvious.) Definitely, maybe I should have mentioned that at the start, but I didn't want to make it all too long-winded. But I keep forgetting that nothing is "obvious" on these forums!  |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting tweeter: Quote:
My problem with Red Violin was that, as another "western pig"    , didn't know which was the given name and which was family.
The Chinese names in the DVD credits were almost all flipped (given <-> family) from those on IMD* and both forms are in our DB according to the credit lookup tool. I finally entered them as credited.
Simply dividing the name into family/given won't tell me which part of a credited name goes where. Sorry tweeter, I only just saw this at the top. Obviously if you don't know which is which, then of course you enter "as credited". No one expects any more than that. If we find out how to parse a particular name later, we change it, simple as that. As for IMD*, I've noticed that they almost always "westernise" the names involved. They even list Chow Yun-Fat as Yun-Fat Chow. So if the names are flipped, then it sounds like they've been credited family name/given name in the actual film. |
| | Registered: June 12, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 2,665 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
Sorry tweeter, I only just saw this at the top. Obviously if you don't know which is which, then of course you enter "as credited". No one expects any more than that. If we find out how to parse a particular name later, we change it, simple as that. I did finally enter them As Credited. I was just hoping someone had the proper decoder ring to sort the names so we could get it right and not have to redo it. Obviously that is a work in progress. | | | | Bad movie? You're soaking in it! |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | North:
Froman As credited, Cerdited as viewpoint you type what you see on screen PERIOD, in the way that it is listed On Screen Period. For making use of Credited As you will have to document Bai Ling or Ling Bai or whatever it si you are trying to do. It is very easy to answer and has been answered many times over he past several years, cultural norms are NOT the issue. just like the French like to talk about the usage of diacriticals that are not shown ON SCREEN. You do not change that data in Any Way, What You See IS What You Type. I have said this before as well. There are those that are far more upset about it, than the actor. Every person involved in working on a film has, as part of their contract, exactly how they will be credited for their work. Just as I am aware of the Oriental culture and its naming vagaires, I have no doubt that such an actors is also aware of how that works in English language, he/she is perfectly capable of insisting that the name be listed with the surname in thhe appropriate place.
So as I said from a As Credited or Credited As viewpoint list it as you see it, anything else tied to Credited As must be backed up.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
North:
Froman As credited, Cerdited as viewpoint you type what you see on screen PERIOD, in the way that it is listed On Screen Period. For making use of Credited As you will have to document Bai Ling or Ling Bai or whatever it si you are trying to do. It is very easy to answer and has been answered many times over he past several years, cultural norms are NOT the issue. just like the French like to talk about the usage of diacriticals that are not shown ON SCREEN. You do not change that data in Any Way, What You See IS What You Type. I have said this before as well. There are those that are far more upset about it, than the actor.
As has already been said repeatedly, this has nothing to do with "credited as", but how we make the entry of the common name consistent. Quote:
Every person involved in working on a film has, as part of their contract, exactly how they will be credited for their work. Just as I am aware of the Oriental culture and its naming vagaires, I have no doubt that such an actors is also aware of how that works in English language, he/she is perfectly capable of insisting that the name be listed with the surname in the appropriate place.
While this may be true for the stars of any such film. I find it highly unlikely you'll find any such clause in a bog-standard jobbing actor's contract. I certainly have never seen such a clause in contracts I've had contact with. You also have a lot of faith in the people who type up the end credits and when faced with a list of given name/family name are totally unaware that some people put them the other way round. Also why would a Hong Kong actor working on a Hong Kong production even consider the possibility that at some point down the line, the film may be sold to an overseas distributor and the credits translated into god knows how many languages? Why would someone who may have never even left their home country even be aware of our naming conventions? But these are distractions only. The topic at hand is how do we enter the common name of Asian actors where they place their family name first? |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | North:
I put NO faith in anything, I deal with the data that is provided PERIOD. There ARE definitely things in fiulm credits which I might believe are errors, and MANY times those errors are intentional. You seem to be coming from the direction that you think you can sort out whether soemthing is in error or not, and since neither you nor I was involved in the production you can't say that and neither can I. We can say we THINK it is, but that does NOT change the data that we have to deal with.
Sometimes I think I know where you are coming from on the oriental issue but you have made a couple of comments which indicate otherwise. I think you are making this a much bigger deal than it needs to be. It is simple for As Credited or Crediited As type what you see, in the order that you see it on the screen. IF you are making use of Credited As then provide documentation to back it up. My concern on this issue is never the actors such as Bai ling/Ling Bai, who makes a good example, but is also well-known and documentation should be plentiful. My concern is the lesser know and unknown actors and i hope you would NOT expect me to accept your claim based on your word or that you have some cultural insight, that would simply be ummm I don't even have the word. It all revolves around documentation, and if you can document it fine, if not then As Credited stands.
From an As Credited/Credited As PPOV what the family name is is totally irrelevant. IF you are using Credited As to establish a common name, then it becomes relevant and must be documented.
This all seems to be much ado about nothing now that we an alias system.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Skip, why the hell do you keep going on about "credited as"? I've repeatedly said this has nothing to do with that! This thread is purely to do with how we parse the common name of someone who we know puts their family name first. It's not that hard a question to understand!
General concensus seems to be that we "westernise" the name, with the majority preferring that we also change the field names. This is my preferred option too, though I'll leave the poll open a bit longer before putting anything in the features request forum.
I would however be interested in know why a few people voted to enter them in the order they appear. They may have a valid reason for choosing this option that hasn't been considered yet. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | I believe I have spelled it out repeatedly North, though I find your comments an ocassion a little muddled, I am guilty of that too. The answer is in the "Common" Name field as I have said AND the documentation. I am quiote familiar with the way many people from the Far East handle names or more apprpriately their naming custom. And that is fine through the "Common" Name field. Whatever the answer is, for ANY individual actor it must be doumented, assuming accuracy is the objective. If its not then those use a dart board can keep using their dartboard and we ill ultimately have a mess that no one will be happy about or be able to use.
Case in point the thread involving Thomas F. Wilson(Tom Wilson), are we using "Common" name, which we have been advised against by Gerri or something else. If it is something else then it would seem to me be logical to use the more formal of the names involved, in this case Thomas F. Wilson, but that is simply my opinion.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | North:
I don't understand your last comment. If it is what I think it is, I will offer it this way, when designing a database there are numerous yardsticks that can be chosen to develop the standards for that database. The yardstick for this database has been chosen and many THOUSANDS of man-hours have been invested in implementing the standard which was approved by Ken. I assume you are NOT suggetsing a change in direction, if you are.....
The yardstick was chosen because it is based on what is On screen and in volves NO individual user input AT ALL. I don't believe you were around when we used to have titles being changed on a weekly basios to suit a particular users preferences, user preferences belong ONLY in the Local database and NOT in the Online. If you wish to list Cast data upside down and backwards locally I'll not tell you no, if try to Contribute it that way I will.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'm sorry Skip - I don't know how many different ways I can explain this, but you've obviously got completely the wrong end of the stick! If this thread has confused many others please tell me and I'll try and start a new, clearer one.
I'll make this as simple as possible:
name: Bai Ling - Bai is her family name, Ling is her given name.
Do we use Bai//Ling or Ling//Bai for the common name?
It's that simple. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | For common name, unless xradman or someone else with expertise in the area, I would give the nod to the cultural norm and use Bai Ling, that is consistent with my understanding of the culture. i think we are in the same place, north.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 404 |
| | Posted: | | | | Hi Northbloke, Sorry, from my point of view, it looks like you are talking to an imaginary friend.  Skip doesn't understand the concept of Credited As, never has, probably never will. Main reason, it's technical. Name = linking, Credited As = Display Name, very complicated for some individuals.  Now you can go on and on about this if you want, but you'll probably just blow a blood vessel. Or you can realise that Skip is only one user, and you don't need his blessing on everything like he thinks you do. | | | The Other DVD Forum
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest? |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Yes, this is exactly the issue under debate.
I also understand why you would parse that way. After all, that's how it's written and normally I'd agree with it.
However, my worry is that from a data point of view, you would end up with a mix of given names and family names in the same field. (ie. Bai would be in the same data field as John, Bob, Jodie etc.) and I wondered what issues that could create later on.
That's why I prefer the other option (Ling Bai), because now her family name is in the same field as everyone else's. Unfortunately it means her common name goes against her culture, although "credited as" would fix that on individual profiles.
Which would you consider more important? Cultural accuracy or database consistency? |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting tlevel: Quote:
Hi Northbloke,
Sorry, from my point of view, it looks like you are talking to an imaginary friend.
How do you know I'm not just schizophrenic?   |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
Yes, this is exactly the issue under debate.
I also understand why you would parse that way. After all, that's how it's written and normally I'd agree with it.
However, my worry is that from a data point of view, you would end up with a mix of given names and family names in the same field. (ie. Bai would be in the same data field as John, Bob, Jodie etc.) and I wondered what issues that could create later on.
That's why I prefer the other option (Ling Bai), because now her family name is in the same field as everyone else's. Unfortunately it means her common name goes against her culture, although "credited as" would fix that on individual profiles.
Which would you consider more important? Cultural accuracy or database consistency? LOL, a question near and dear to my heart...well done, my friend. Fortunately I think with the Credited As alias we can cover both bases. I believe in general Hollywood and possibly other film capitals have chosen to "Westernize" the Oriental names. but I really thin we can now accomodate both, with the noted exception that WHEN a name cannot be documented then AS CREDITED rules the day, ALL cultural issues aside. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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