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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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A tale of two actors named Simon Baker |
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| Author |
Message |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,911 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
And this highlights why I keep saying steer clear of Common Name and BY BOTH for the time being. I think its marvelous that we have the new features, and I look forward to making use of them. But NO CRITERIA have been developed and Criteria for Common Name has been developed and as this thread demonstrates Common Name handling CAN affect BY and vice versa. What it boils down to, right now, is that ANYTHING that you as a user choose to do in these areas is one of purely personal opinion and preference, which may oir may NOT coincide with other user's opinions and preferences. Ken is working on his plan and once we see what it is and how it will actually function, THEN we can sort it out.
I repeat again, I would not and will not personally, except in very RARE occurrences make use of this functionality. I have waited for THREE years to see it restored and I can wait a few more weeks to get it hammered out.
Skip But, there is a rule for Birth Year, and the program also tells you when yo use the Birth Year feasture. So, Simon Baker (both of them) should be distinguisehd by BY, not by a common name at this time. | | | | Signature banned: Reason out of date... |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | No, I haven't Erik. Sit down and think about it. The two areas BY and Common name are somewhat linked in function and we can wind up with redundant data until, this gets sorted out.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | And who SAYS Simon Baker is the CORRECT Common Name. Where is the criteria to establish that for profiler. Once the Common Name criteria is set up are we going to go back and revisit any applicable BY data and remove it, see what I mean.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,911 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
And who SAYS Simon Baker is the CORRECT Common Name. Where is the criteria to establish that for profiler. Once the Common Name criteria is set up are we going to go back and revisit any applicable BY data and remove it, see what I mean.
Skip If he is credited as Simon Baker in the film's credits (which he was for this argument) he should be seperated from the other Simon Baker viia BY, not by picking a common name out of thin air. Simon R. Baker is credited as both Simon Baker and Simon R. Baker. This user chose to use Simon R. Baker as a common name to change the film's credits which were "Simon Baker". He chose a common name with NO STANDARD. AND, YOU AGREED WITH IT! | | | | Signature banned: Reason out of date... |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | The purpose was to highlight the issue, Erik and point out the futility here of trying to do this without Criteria and....it worked. Users either don't like to listen or don't follow my logic, so I took this as an opportunity to very graphically demonstrate the issue.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting pplchamp: Quote:
If he is credited as Simon Baker in the film's credits (which he was for this argument) he should be seperated from the other Simon Baker viia BY, not by picking a common name out of thin air.
Simon R. Baker is credited as both Simon Baker and Simon R. Baker. This user chose to use Simon R. Baker as a common name to change the film's credits which were "Simon Baker". He chose a common name with NO STANDARD.
AND, YOU AGREED WITH IT! You are mixing up contributions. For 'I, Robot', the on screen credit was Simon R. Baker. The contributor changed the common name to Simon Baker (1986) and made Simon R. Baker the credited as name. For me, that didn't make any sense. Instead of going to a common name that is shared by another actor why not just stick with the name that is different? There was another contribution that simply added BY to the credit of Simon Baker. However, in the contribution notes, it was mentioned that it was the same person as was in I, Robot. If that was the case, I figured you might as well just go with the different name rather than entering a BY. That is just my opinion. Your mileage may vary. However, since the first was declined and the second was accepted, I guess the voters decided.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 5,494 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
And this highlights why I keep saying steer clear of Common Name and BY BOTH for the time being. I think its marvelous that we have the new features, and I look forward to making use of them. But NO CRITERIA have been developed for Common Name handling, And as this thread demonstrates Common Name handling CAN affect BY and vice versa. What it boils down to, right now, is that ANYTHING that you as a user choose to do in these areas is one of purely personal opinion and preference, which may oir may NOT coincide with other user's opinions and preferences. Ken is working on his plan and once we see what it is and how it will actually function, THEN we can sort it out.
I repeat again, I would not and will not personally, except in very RARE occurrences make use of this functionality. I have waited for THREE years to see it restored and I can wait a few more weeks to get it hammered out.
Skip Is that a statement, an answer, or a question ??? .., i.e It don't answser da question I raised, without hijacking this post.. | | | In the 60's, People took Acid to make the world Weird. Now the World is weird and People take Prozac to make it Normal.
Terry | | | | Last edited: by widescreenforever |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 810 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting NEWT0N: Quote:
I am speaking about "Shanghai Noon" UPC 717951-010605
Here "Simon Baker (1986)" got approved just now WITH A BIRTHYEAR
You are all looking at a different DVD version.
<thinking>
Anyway, according to the rules I could now theoretically propagate the change to all the other profiles based on the rule Quote:
If the birth year change is due to an accepted change to another profile, indicate that.
</thinking>
Cheers, NEWT0N As of this posting it has not yet been approved. My first submission based on your submission for "The Devil Wears Prada" used birth year to tell the two "Simon Baker"s apart. After Skip voted No saying that the data supported using "common name"/"as credited" ( "Simon R. Baker" credited as "Simon Baker"), I changed it to that. This by the way is the way I think it should be done. By getting Skip on record with the No vote on the prior submission I felt I had a better chance of getting it approved.  pdf | | | Paul Francis
San Juan Capistrano, CA, USA |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,911 |
| | Posted: | | | | The only point I was trying to make is that we should have the following actors in the DB...
Simon Baker (BY1)
Simon Baker (BY2)
Simon R. Baker
Until the common name is sorted out on how to determine the most credited, they should not be linked. | | | | Signature banned: Reason out of date... |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: April 1, 2007 |  Posts: 53 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting pplchamp: Quote:
The only point I was trying to make is that we should have the following actors in the DB...
Simon Baker (BY1)
Simon Baker (BY2)
Simon R. Baker
Until the common name is sorted out on how to determine the most credited, they should not be linked. After all the approvals/declines it looks now like this: Simon Baker (BY1) Simon R. Baker This is the case because there seems to be another bug in DVDprofiler that causes DVDProfiler to assume that "Simon Baker" with a BY and ALL "Simon Baker" without a BY are the same... So everybody with "Shanghai Noon" UPC 717951-010605 will now still have a mix up of "Simon Baker"... ^^ and now even with a wrong birthday because the two Simon Bakers are merged under one BY.... Anyway, I am waiting for some improvements in this area within DVDProfiler, as it does obviously not work like it is implemented at the moment... And without rules it is useless to vote on something. Cheers, NEWT0N |
| | Registered: May 9, 2007 |  Posts: 1,536 |
| | Posted: | | | | The general feeling appears to be to use BY only when absolutely necessary to distinguish the common name, although I have seen some profiles (That '70s Show) with BY for just about all actors.
I have not contributed any BY so far, even where I use it to distinguish exactly the same names (middle name and all). This is unrelated to "Credited As", which feature actually helps since it allows using middle names in common names even if they are rarely credited. I like the feature of linking movies through actors, and to do so completely and accurately.
However, as long as the use is optional, what would be the fundamental reason against including "unnecessary" BY data? This may always help avoid confusions later. The Name Variants tool is perfect for keeping this organised. | | | | Hans |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Satid:
That isn't just the common feeling, it's in the Rules so anyone who has inserted BY for all actors has violated the Rules and the data should be REMOVED.
It is optional from THIOS viewpoint, if you want to have all BY data, then you do NOT Contribute the data, you keep it locally ONLY.
"Enter birth years only when necessary to differentiate between two actors with the same name. When submitting a contribution that adds a birth year to one or more credits, list justification in the contribution notes."
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: May 9, 2007 | | Posts: 1,536 |
| | Posted: | | | | I am not bending the rules, or not even proposing to change them, I would just like to understand the background of this rule. I also do not particularly want BY data expect to distinguish, but then one could propose to err on the safe side.
At the moment I don't even contribute BY's that would be covered by the rules, since the consequences are not clear to me. For example does DVDP treat existing actor references with and without BY as distinct? I have seen both opinions voiced in the contribution discussions.
About removing data, how does one signify double entries (same Disc ID, same location, same data) in the database, or more generally undesirable entries? | | | | Hans |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Backgfround, OK. We have always been instructed NOT to use IMDb Roman Numerals to distinguish between two actors of the same name. So a solution was required, and BY, we thought was a rather elegant and unique situation. Now of course it took users about 30 seconds to discover that we couuld not find BY for all actors and crew, so that is being looked at again and we thin that an answer has been figured out. Skip Quote:
About removing data, how does one signify double entries (same Disc ID, same location, same data) in the database, or more generally undesirable entries? Clarify please Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: May 9, 2007 | | Posts: 1,536 |
| | Posted: | | | | I noted a double entry in the database, and wondered how to propose to get that out. More generally, how would one propose to get rid of obviously wrong profiles. although I am happy to note that most of the really messy stuff did not make it over from IVS.
Example for which I may be partly responsible and for that reason would like to see corrected (and that you entered in the first place):
Gidget, with Disc ID F876-2FB0-D[D94-FE81], although in the "Add DVD's to ...", Search by Name, it is not possible to get to see the whole number, so I am not 100% sure these entries are the same, and I can not load them since it is already in my database.
As for BY, I trust nobody ever considered to make it mandatory. On the other hand, it is simpler than a sort of numbering system - social security number ;-) ? - combined with Credited As. Don't take this suggestion seriously! | | | | Hans |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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