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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | there can be no standardizations... the rules states to use the credit look-up tool on this site and go by that... and Ken even clarified not that long ago that we are to use the most credited form of the name... so that leaves out any type of standardizations. | | | Pete |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 9 |
| Posted: | | | | According to the Credit Lookup tool:
Elisha Cook Jr. (116 titles, 198 profiles)
Elisha Cook, Jr. (37 titles, 58 profiles)
Hmm. | | | Last edited: by Buffalo Springfield |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 2,366 |
| Posted: | | | | IMHO there need to be a standard for three things: Prefixes, Suffixes and Accents. Any most credited form should be ignored to ensure consistency and correct spelling. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands | | | Last edited: by Daddy DVD |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | except the rules... and then ken's statement from the last time this was discussed don't support any kind of standardization.
And IMHO there shouldn't be any standardization.... we have the tool to use and it should be used for all instances... not a bunch of exceptions to the rules that we need to memorize. | | | Pete |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 2,366 |
| Posted: | | | | The rules are already full of exceptions and things to memorize. I do not see any harm in adding some more to create a better and consistent online database. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | I don't see where it will be any better or more consistent with standardization... as long as you follow the rules that are there when you contribute... and use the look-up tool as you are supposed to it is just as consistent without the exceptions that has to be memorized.
Both ways gets us to the same goal... the way I prefer without having to make and memorize exceptions and the way you prefer and need to make and memorize exceptions. so sounds much easier to me to let the look-up tool and rules work as they are instead of complicating it with even more exceptions to the rule. | | | Pete |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote: I don't see where it will be any better or more consistent with standardization... as long as you follow the rules that are there when you contribute... and use the look-up tool as you are supposed to it is just as consistent without the exceptions that has to be memorized.
Both ways gets us to the same goal... the way I prefer without having to make and memorize exceptions and the way you prefer and need to make and memorize exceptions. so sounds much easier to me to let the look-up tool and rules work as they are instead of complicating it with even more exceptions to the rule. I have to agree with Pete. It is the easiest way to go. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Martin_Zuidervliet: Quote: The rules are already full of exceptions and things to memorize. I do not see any harm in adding some more to create a better and consistent online database. I agree and so do most of the people who participated in this poll. Unfortunately, polls carry no weight when it comes to the Rules......unless of course Ken decides to change the Rules as the result of a poll! | | | Hal |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote: I don't see where it will be any better or more consistent with standardization... as long as you follow the rules that are there when you contribute... and use the look-up tool as you are supposed to it is just as consistent without the exceptions that has to be memorized.
Both ways gets us to the same goal... the way I prefer without having to make and memorize exceptions and the way you prefer and need to make and memorize exceptions. so sounds much easier to me to let the look-up tool and rules work as they are instead of complicating it with even more exceptions to the rule. I would venture to guess that the only reason that 'Elisha Cook Jr.' is more numerous in our database than 'Elisha Cook, Jr.' is because our database still has an overwhelming number of "IMDb" credits still in it, not because it is REALLY the way the credit actually appears more often in the actual film credits. At some point, when these are corrected, 'Elisha Cook, Jr.' will become the more numerous version in our database and then all of a sudden, we are going to have to fix a whole bunch of profiles. If we implemented a standard today, we could avoid all of that mess. That would mean we were being more consistent. NOTE: the 'Elisha Cook' example is just that, an example, and may or may not be applicable....I did not check the film credits for all of his films to see which version is actually more numerous! | | | Hal | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | I for one have no problem with something changing over time. as the database gets corrected and if the common name changes... so be it. Then we just fix it to the new common name. As long as we are going with most commonly credited this is always a possibility with any number of names in the database... whether it be because of finally getting cast lists corrected into the database or because of a name change for one reason or another (i.e. marriage). So I still stick to my beliefs that standardization is not the answer. | | | Pete |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote: I for one have no problem with something changing over time. as the database gets corrected and if the common name changes... so be it. Then we just fix it to the new common name. As long as we are going with most commonly credited this is always a possibility with any number of names in the database... whether it be because of finally getting cast lists corrected into the database or because of a name change for one reason or another (i.e. marriage). So I still stick to my beliefs that standardization is not the answer. It's not a matter of just fixing the common name. We will have to find every profile with 'Elisha Cook Jr.' and add a "credited as" entry. These will not be fixed by changing the common name. This is going to be a huge mess, IMHO! | | | Hal |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | As you would with any common name that changes over time... I don't see the difference between this any any other name that could/would change in time. No matter the name to use the common name feature you need to find every profile with said name and add the credited as entry. That is how the credited as field works. I don't see where making a bunch of exceptions to memorize helps anything when leaving it as is now gets us the linking working.
In other words... either way you have to find all the profiles that don't match to get the linking to work.... so why make all these exceptions to memorize when leaving it as it is now works the same... and without having to add the exceptions to memorize.
Both ways standardization and strict use of the credit look-up tool gets us to name linking. lets keep it simple and go with the way ken stated it to be now... and as the rules supports now. | | | Pete |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote: As you would with any common name that changes over time... I don't see the difference between this any any other name that could/would change in time. No matter the name to use the common name feature you need to find every profile with said name and add the credited as entry. That is how the credited as field works. I don't see where making a bunch of exceptions to memorize helps anything when leaving it as is now gets us the linking working.
In other words... either way you have to find all the profiles that don't match to get the linking to work.... so why make all these exceptions to memorize when leaving it as it is now works the same... and without having to add the exceptions to memorize.
Both ways standardization and strict use of the credit look-up tool gets us to name linking. lets keep it simple and go with the way ken stated it to be now... and as the rules supports now. I don't have to find them all today for common name "Elisha Cook Jr.', and then again in six months for "Elisha Cook, Jr.". I'd do it one time and never have to worry about it changing at some point in the future. Maybe I'm just not being clear? | | | Hal |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | I do understand it... I just don't agree with it. I don't think they should be treated any differently then any other name... as I said a common name can change for many reasons. Marriage... the use of a stage name and then stop using it... using middle name in some and not others... what have you.
And as of now the rules do not support standardizing.... nor do Ken's most recent comments on the subject when he said it is meant to be most commonly credited form. So at this point it is up to Ken if he wants to add such a thing... but until then standardization is not allowed and would get a no vote from me. | | | Pete |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote: I do understand it... I just don't agree with it. I don't think they should be treated any differently then any other name... as I said a common name can change for many reasons. Marriage... the use of a stage name and then stop using it... using middle name in some and not others... what have you.
And as of now the rules do not support standardizing.... nor do Ken's most recent comments on the subject when he said it is meant to be most commonly credited form. So at this point it is up to Ken if he wants to add such a thing... but until then standardization is not allowed and would get a no vote from me. We all know what the Rules and Ken have stated. This is simply a discussion of the merits, regardless of the Rules. Obviously, we cannot control people getting married and changing their names. This is a change that we could control if we chose to do so and save a whole lot of work down the road as we clean the IMDb data out of our database. Where are all the "database gurus" who should understand data normalization? | | | Hal |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | I have no problem with talking about the merrits of a rules change... though I do personally think anyextended discussion of such a change should be handled in the rules committee forum... that is why it is there. This is a place for discussing how to contribute and to explain the rules we now have. I can see topics come up here about a rules change... but believe that the actual rules change discussion should be where it is designed to be.
This all started over again from someone asking about a consensus to the standardizing and me pointing out that standardizing is not allowed. At least at this time. Unless Ken decides to change his mind... we must go by what the credit look-up tool on this site says.
And then the discussion about it all started back up I stated my opinion that I disagree with standardization (and still do)... that is my view on it. I personally see no sense in making unnecessary exceptions when both ways gets us to the same goal. | | | Pete |
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