Welcome to the Invelos forums. Please read the forum rules before posting.

Read access to our public forums is open to everyone. To post messages, a free registration is required.

If you have an Invelos account, sign in to post.

    Invelos Forums->General: General Home Theater Discussion Page: 1... 19 20 21 22 23 ...31  Previous   Next
Game Consoles.....The good, the bad, and the ugly
Author Message
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,201
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting graymadder:
Quote:
I know it is easy to get off base but come on? This might be a new one even for this forum.


Yea, you are correct.  I should have just said,"Here's your sign," and moved on.  I will know better next time. 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
A Blu-ray crack fiend
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 1,127
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting stefc:
Quote:
Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
The NPD numbers (US) are directly used by www.vgchartz.com.

Prove that. Absolutely no mention of NPD providing the figures for VG Chartz anywhere on the vgchartz website.


Email them.  They respond quite quickly.
To err is human...
-----------
473 Blu-ray Titles
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantstefc
Registered: March 14, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 254
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
Email them.  They respond quite quickly.

Wrong answer. Prove it yourself. If you cant, then stop trying to disprove and ignore the public knowledge that a. NPD totals for September were 3.3 million and b. there are 6 days inclusive between the 25th and 30th of September and move on.

Anyway getting back to the actual point, no titles on the PS3 horizon that will spur sales in the manner of Halo 3, which to me, is a worry.

In other news, Ratchet getting good reviews, and includes the 1.94 firmware on the disc which enables rumble support if you choose to import a DualShock 3 from Japan (i already have my order in with yesasia). Played the demo and didn't really get into it, but more games that are at least "approaching" the term "AAA" is encouraging nonetheless. Also, Uncharted is gold and demo coming in mid-November.

On the 360 Mass Effect has gone gold, new Forza 2 track DLC available tomorrow and November 5th sees India join Xbox Live.
 Last edited: by stefc
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,201
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
There is no reason to email them.  If you search their site, they tell you where their numbers come from.  The numbers come from a small sampling of retailers.

In addition, their charts do not represent actual sales.  I should point out that they are up front about that point and do not make that claim.  What they do say is, "VG Chartz should be seen as a very powerful prediction tool for industry and casual user alike in looking ahead to the future market and making educated and informed predictions."

As I have said, quite a few times, it pays to read beyond the first page.  In this case, you didn't even have to do that.  On the home page, right under the advertisement in the right hand column, you will find this little paragraph (the bold is not mine, it is their's):

Quote:
Unlike many other websites (which use manufacturer shipment figures and reports to estimate current console sales), VG Chartz collects data directly from retailers all over the world. Retailer sample sizes are small compared to professional tracking services, but are large enough to provide very accurate projections of the latest console sell through figures worldwide. We are the only provider anywhere in the world of weekly American sales charts and are expanding our data collection and coverage all the time. To find out more, visit our about us and methodology pages.


See what it says?  "...to provide very accurate projections of the latest console sell through figures..."  Their charts are projected sales, not actual sales.

That being said, the actual NPD numbers, according to this site, are as follows:

September 2007 NPD Hardware Sales
  • PlayStation 2 -- 215,000

  • PlayStation 3 -- 119,000

  • PlayStation Portable -- 284,500

  • Xbox 360 -- 527,800

  • Wii -- 501,000

  • Nintendo DS -- 495,800


  • September 2007 Software Sales
  • 1. Halo 3 (Xbox 360) -- 3.3 million

  • 2. Wii Play w/ remote (Wii) -- 282,000

  • 3. The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass (Nintendo DS) -- 224,000

  • 4. Madden NFL 08 (PlayStation 2) -- 205,000

  • 5. Skate (Xbox 360) -- 175,000

  • 6. Madden NFL 08 (Xbox 360) -- 173,000

  • 7. Metroid Prime 3: Corruption (Wii) -- 167,000

  • 8. BioShock (Xbox 360) -- 150,000

  • 9. Brain Age 2 (Nintendo DS) -- 141,000

  • 10. Heavenly Sword (PlayStation 3) -- 139,000


  • I have gone through several pages of google results and have found nothing to contradict those numbers.  Every story, claiming NPD numbers, says the same thing.
    No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
    There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
    Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
    The Centauri learned this lesson once.
    We will teach it to them again.
    Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
    - Citizen G'Kar
     Last edited: by TheMadMartian
    DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantstefc
    Registered: March 14, 2007
    United Kingdom Posts: 254
    Posted:
    PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
    From the blog of an Ex-Harmonix developer (Devleopers of Guitar Hero 1 and 2, Rock Band)

    Quote:
    I read various game forums from time to time, and often see gamers complaining about 'lazy ports' to the ps3. They often mention how the ps3 is the most powerful game console and blame developers working on the console for doing a bad job. Sony has all of these people duped by impressive marketing spin, and I'm often amazed at how potent this type of rhetoric proves to be. For those unaware, I'm going to break it down simply and explain exactly why ports to the ps3 will never be as good as their 360 counter parts, and why most ps3 exclusives will likely continue to suck. First, lets debunk a few common misconceptions:

    "The PS3 is more graphically advanced than the 360"

    Fill rate is one of the primary ways to measure graphics performance - in essence, it's a number describing how many pixel operations you can perform. The fill rate on the PS3 is significantly slower than on the 360, meaning that games either have to run at lower resolution or use simpler shader effects to achieve the same performance. Additionally, the shader processing on the ps3 is significantly slower than on the 360, which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the ps3 than it does on the 360. And I'm not talking about small differences here, we're talking roughly half the pixel pushing power.

    "Ok, fine, but the cell is like, super powerful"

    In theory, sure, but in reality it doesn't work out that way. Game code simply doesn't split well across multiple processors. You can probably find a way to split a few things off fairly easily - put the audio on one processor, animation on another; but generally the breakup is always going to leave several of the SPUs idle or underutilized. On top of that, it's usually not CPU speed that restricts the visuals in games - it's fill rate.

    "Uh, Blue Ray!"

    Great for watching movies, but not so great for games. Getting data off the blue ray drive takes about twice as long as it does to get the same data off the 360's DVD drive. That translates into longer load times, or god forbid if your streaming from disk, tighter constraints on the amount of data you can stream.

    "But it's got a lot more space than DVD"

    Ok, you got me there - it does have a lot more space, and there is the potential to use that to do something cool, but thats unlikely to be realized in any useful way. There are tons of compression techniques available for data and I'd personally rather be able to get my data faster than have more of it. Most developers who use the entire Blue Ray drive are doing it to work around other problems with the ps3 such as it's slow loading - for instance, in Resistance: Fall of Man, every art asset is stored on disk once for every level that uses it. So rather than storing one copy of a texture, you're storing it 12 times. If you took that entire game and removed all the duplicate data, it would likely fit on a DVD without any problem. They do this to speed up load times, which, as I pointed out before, are painfully slow on the ps3. So in this case, the extra space is completely wasted.

    "Once developers figure out the PS3 they'll maximize the hardware and it will be amazing"

    I suspect a small number of PS3 only developers will optimize the hardware to do something cool. However, this will be an exception to the rule, and will likely involved game designs that are specifically designed for the hardware and funded by Sony. If those will prove to be fun or not is another question.

    Most of the performance centric research into the PS3 has been around making it easier for developers to get the same level of performance you get out of the 360 naturally. For instance, some developers are using those extra SPU's on the cell to prepare data for the rendering pipeline. Basically, they take the data they would normally send to the graphics chip, send it to an SPU which optimizes it in some manner, then send it to the graphics chip. So, once again we see an 'advantage' in hardware being used to make up for a disadvantage in another area - a common theme with the ps3. And this introduces an extra frame of latency into the equation, making controller response slower.

    So, the common theme is this; developers must spend significantly more time and resources getting the PS3 to do what the 360 can already do easily and with a lot less code. Lets look at how this translates into practical realities for a moment:

    Why the PS3 version often pails in comparison to the 360 version, and why exclusives often suck:

    As outlined above, getting equivalent performance out of the PS3 requires a lot of work unique to the platform, and in many cases, even with all these tricks, you still won't see equivalent performance. Thus, many ps3 games have simplified shaders and run at lower native resolutions than the 360 versions. On top of this, there is shrinking incentive to do this work; the PS3 isn't selling.

    The code needed to make the PS3 work is most likely only useful to you on the PS3, as the types of tricks you need to do to make the thing perform are very unique to the platform and unlikely to be useful on any other architecture now or in the future. These issues all stem from unbalanced hardware design, and any future hardware that is this unbalanced will likely be unbalanced in a completely unique way.

    Finally, there's the problem of resources. Game Development is, at it's heart, a resource management challenge. Given finite resources, do I have these five engineers work on optimizing the PS3 version to look better, or do I use them to make the game play better and fix bugs? Do I change my design to fit with what the PS3 hardware does well, or simply run the game at a slightly lower resolution on the PS3 to make up for it? Developers striving to push the PS3 hardware have often sacrificed their game in the process.

    This post might come across as a lot of Sony bashing, but it's just the reality from the trenches. Sony let their hardware be designed by a comity of business interests rather than a well thought out design that would serve the game development community. They are going to loose hard this round because of it, and I hope that in the next round they take lessons from this round and produce a more balanced and usable machine.


    Seems to be a common feeling amongst (3rd party,of course!) developers.

    Link
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
    A Blu-ray crack fiend
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    Posts: 1,127
    Posted:
    PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
    We SHOULD all know be now that games that and developed from the ground up on each platform ends to look and/or play better than the Xbox 360 version.  Oblivion, DiRT, and COD4 are some examples.

    There are NO complex native 1080p games on the Xbox 360 or coming to the Xbox 360 in the foreseeable future.  There are more than a few complex native 1080p games coming to the PS3 in the foreseeable future.  This is where independent thinkers would usually ask themselves why is that?  Why do games like Forza 2 and PGR4 not look as good as GT5?  If the Xbox 360 is capable of better graphics and/or physics, why aren't we seeing that?  The xbox 360 has been out a ENTIRE year longer than the PS3.


    Drive speed between Blu-ray (PS3) and DVD (Xbox 360).  This is one of the MAIN reasons I question the entire blog.  This is in the PC hardware realm (where I definitely know more than a software developer). 

    You CAN NOT take the 2x (for Blu-ray drive) and 12x (for DVD drive) at face value.  That would make you extremely WRONG.  The real difference is between CLV (2x Blu-ray) drives and CAV (12x DVD) drives.  The 12x DVD drive reads at different speeds depending on where it is on the disk.  12x is ONLY achieved at the outer most part of the disk (a VERY small part of the total disk).  At the beginning of a DVD, that drive is reading information at probably LESS than 1x.  About mid-way through reading the disc, the read speed about 60% less than max. read speed (about 5x).  Read speeds of 12x can't be achieved UNLESS the entire disc is filled with data.

    CLV drives (2x Blu-ray) read at the SAME rate from the beginning to the end of the disc.  That also helps to decreases seek times.  Therefore, overall, the speed of these two drives access data at about the same read speeds over a completely filled disc.  If the Xbox 360 DVD disk is NOT completely filled with data, the PS3 has the read speed advantage.  That is why OBLIVION loaded TWICE as fast on the PS3 than the Xbox 360 after they copied the data on the Blu-ray disc TWICE.  They thought it would just make Oblivion load just as fast as the Xbox 360 version (they didn't know the hardware difference between the drives either).  For math purposes, 1x Blu-ray is 36Mbps and 1x DVD is 10Mbps.

    Also, developers for Xbox 360 games (like PGR4) said they had to cut out some content due to lack of space on a DVD9.  The developers of Assassin's Creed and GTA IV expressed difficulty in trying to deal with the space constraints of DVD9.  Rockstar said this is why L.A. Noire will not be on the Xbox 360.

    IS it difficult to program for the PS3?  Yes.  Will it help them be more capable of taking advantage of multi-core processors that are becoming the norm?  Of course, it will.  Do people fight progress tooth and nail?  Absolutely!  The PS3 is a great advancement in technology and the KEY to real-time Ray-Tracing.  Learning to program for the PS3 will get developers use to the PS4 which I believe will have 2 Cell processors in it.

    Remember, extremely advanced technology usually has a steep learning curve involved.  In the end, this will allow people to see what developers are up for the challenge and which ones are not.  From that blog you posted, that develop ISN'T up for the challenge (and he doesn't know the hardware).
    To err is human...
    -----------
    473 Blu-ray Titles
     Last edited: by Ascended_Saiyan
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantCalidain
    You're no Daisy at all!
    Registered: March 16, 2007
    Posts: 405
    Posted:
    PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
    A_S thanks for clearing that up, because seriously I really felt that the game developer knew what the hell he was talking about, but now that you have cleared the veil of cowpie from that blog, I can see that you have been right all along...all these lazy developers are working in unison to ruin the PS3 and they all need to burn in hell NOW!!!  Thank you for your benevolence and patience with those of us who are foolsih enough to believe the industry engineers...forgive for us for our ignorance oh great HOLEy ASC!!!

    My Collection!!!
     Last edited: by Calidain
    DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantstefc
    Registered: March 14, 2007
    United Kingdom Posts: 254
    Posted:
    PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
    Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
    Quote:
    We SHOULD ...

    This post is so lacking in anything resembling intelligent, or informed or cohesive thinking, I don't even know where to begin tearing it apart. I won't bother because the only person who doesn't recognise this, is its own oblivious author.

    If you can't learn how to spell words like challenge and absolutely, at least try to learn how to use a spell checker.
     Last edited: by stefc
    DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantgraymadder
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    United States Posts: 103
    Posted:
    PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
    My 360 was locking up so I took it back to Best Buy for a replacement. it was great. I got a whole new console plus two free games. The new 360's also have an HDMI port as well. This console is much more quiet. I haven't bothered to look up what rev of HDMI it is, but it doesn't really matter to me.

    A_S your comment about you knowing more about PC hardware than a software devoloper, exactly how did you come up with this conclusion? Because all the sofware devolopers I know sure know a lot about the hardware they are writing code for. I can see, and this is a stretch, maybe people who code third party apps for Windows XP/Vista, but not code that is written directly to interact with hardware. I can tell you for a fact this friend of mine who writes code for his company that makes disk controlers for SAN's sure knows a lot about disks, HBA's, iSCSI, FC's. He has forgotten more about SAN hardware than i will ever know. This is a bold statement to make, even for you.
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
    A Blu-ray crack fiend
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    Posts: 1,127
    Posted:
    PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
    Quoting stefc:
    Quote:
    Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
    Quote:
    We SHOULD ...

    This post is so lacking in anything resembling intelligent, or informed or cohesive thinking, I don't even know where to begin tearing it apart. I won't bother because the only person who doesn't recognise this, is its own oblivious author.

    If you can't learn how to spell words like challenge and absolutely, at least try to learn how to use a spell checker.

    Is that really the best you can do?  You can't attack the information (because it's true).  You attack the 2 misspelled words through the sea of words.  I am typing on my PS3.

    I guess you go by rule number 10 from that post Richard Casey wrote in response to Amir's post.  You don't try to disprove my information.  You don't ask people to believe you.  You just ask them to NOT believe me.  That's a great philosophy you've got going there.    Do you want to sheck this one for spelling, too?  I will make the corrections since it is keeping you from seeing the point.
    To err is human...
    -----------
    473 Blu-ray Titles
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
    A Blu-ray crack fiend
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    Posts: 1,127
    Posted:
    PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
    Quoting graymadder:
    Quote:
    My 360 was locking up so I took it back to Best Buy for a replacement. it was great. I got a whole new console plus two free games. The new 360's also have an HDMI port as well. This console is much more quiet. I haven't bothered to look up what rev of HDMI it is, but it doesn't really matter to me.

    A_S your comment about you knowing more about PC hardware than a software devoloper, exactly how did you come up with this conclusion? Because all the sofware devolopers I know sure know a lot about the hardware they are writing code for. I can see, and this is a stretch, maybe people who code third party apps for Windows XP/Vista, but not code that is written directly to interact with hardware. I can tell you for a fact this friend of mine who writes code for his company that makes disk controlers for SAN's sure knows a lot about disks, HBA's, iSCSI, FC's. He has forgotten more about SAN hardware than i will ever know. This is a bold statement to make, even for you.

    The HDMI revision doesn't matter on the 360, because it doesn't support the other audio codecs.  Even HDMI 1.0 will allow 1080p video (no audio though).  It's most likely HDMI 1.1, but they could be using the HDMI 1.2 from the Elite.  I wonder if MS allows the standard DD and DTS to be passed over HDMI or if you still have to use the analog or optical cables.  Could you test that out and post the results back here?  If you can't, it's no big deal.

    When you talk about disk drives, it is probably one of the LEAST known components to software developers.  They don't have to do anything with it the moving components at the hardware level.  They just have to, basically, communicate with it.  That does not have anything to do with what makes a drive a CLV or CAV drive.  That's why I gave the Oblivion example.  Do you remember the interviews before Oblision was released for the PS3?  The developers talked about how they have to copy the data on the BD twice is the load times wouldn't be so slow.  Then, look at the reviews for the game on the PS3 regarding load times.  If twice the data makes you load twice as fast, once would make you about even.  That shows a lack of knowledge about the differences in the drives.

    Someone saying the X360's 12x DVD is much faster than the PS3's 2x BD drive, is no better than I would expect out of someone reading 12x drive and thinking it's 6x better than a 2x BD drive.  Does that sound like someone that's VERY knowledgeable about that part the PC's hardware?  Is knowledge about ALL of a PC's hardware something that developers CAN learn?  Absolutely.  Is it required to do their job?  No, it's not.

    Since that developer was complaining so much about programming for the PS3, I'm guessing he probably didn't go the extra mile in learning more about PC hardware than he had to.  His statements about the drives read speeds only serve to re-enforce my point.  This information is EASY to find.
    To err is human...
    -----------
    473 Blu-ray Titles
    DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantstefc
    Registered: March 14, 2007
    United Kingdom Posts: 254
    Posted:
    PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
    Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
    Quote:
    We SHOULD all know be now that games that and developed from the ground up on each platform ends to look and/or play better than the Xbox 360 version.  Oblivion, DiRT, and COD4 are some examples.

    GARBAGE (including your english).
    Madden 08 - 30fps on PS3, 60fps on 360, Skate - noticeable lag and slowdown on PS3 compared to 360, PES 2008, noticeable lag and slowdown on PS3, COD4 is unreleased, you have no clue if it will run any different between the 2 systems.
    Quote:
    There are NO complex native 1080p games on the Xbox 360 or coming to the Xbox 360 in the foreseeable future. There are more than a few complex native 1080p games coming to the PS3 in the foreseeable future.

    GARBAGE.
    What is a "complex native 1080p" game? That term is subjective drivel dressed up as one of your objective "FACTS".
    Quote:
    Why do games like Forza 2 and PGR4 not look as good as GT5?  If the Xbox 360 is capable of better graphics and/or physics, why aren't we seeing that?  The xbox 360 has been out a ENTIRE year longer than the PS3.

    GARBAGE.
    GT5 is not finished yet. What are you basing your opinion on? The japanese demo of a demo of GT5? Have you played Forza 2 and PGR4? Are you going by screenshots? Or just paraphrasing from ps3fanboy.com?
    Quote:
    Drive speed between Blu-ray (PS3) and DVD (Xbox 360). ...blablabla... 1x DVD is 10Mbps.

    GARBAGE.
    If the wait and cost involved with choosing BD over DVD means that games have to store the data multiple times to match read speeds, it was a TERRIBLE decision. PS3 games are on 25GB BD discs, DVD are 9GB so essentially for better or matching load times, the extra space is wasted.
    Quote:
    Also, developers for Xbox 360 games (like PGR4) said they had to cut out some content due to lack of space on a DVD9.  The developers of Assassin's Creed and GTA IV expressed difficulty in trying to deal with the space constraints of DVD9. 

    They have NEVER shown these 2 games running on PS3. NEVER. Every demonstration or video from both games is from the 360 build. Care to tell us why? And the rest of Ubi's statement that you are quoting from explains the difficulty of programming for PS3's limited memory - "How we handle memory is really different between the two machines and we're struggling right now on the PS3." See how easy it is to take statements out of context for the purpose of retarded internet forum console arguments?
    Quote:
    Rockstar said this is why L.A. Noire will not be on the Xbox 360.

    I guess thats why its been delayed till 2009 then?
    Quote:
    IS it difficult to program for the PS3?  Yes.  Will it help them be more capable of taking advantage of multi-core processors that are becoming the norm?  Of course, it will.  Do people fight progress tooth and nail?  Absolutely!  The PS3 is a great advancement in technology and the KEY to real-time Ray-Tracing.  Learning to program for the PS3 will get developers use to the PS4 which I believe will have 2 Cell processors in it.

    GARBAGE.
    The cell is not a symmetric multi-core chip, whereas the xenon, and all new pc cpus, are. Cell cannot profit from regular multi-threading, as it does not have symmetric cores. I don't care what you "believe" the PS4 will have in it, neither does anyone else. The Sony plan for the PS3 was 10 year lifespan, there is little chance of the ibm cell still being a viable CPU option in even 4 or 5 years time. Real-time ray tracing - you are so clueless its gone past funny and reached pitiful.
    Quote:
    Remember, extremely advanced technology usually has a steep learning curve involved.  In the end, this will allow people to see what developers are up for the challenge and which ones are not.  From that blog you posted, that develop ISN'T up for the challenge (and he doesn't know the hardware).

    GARBAGE.
    Lets see you program games as successful as Guitar Hero and then you can lecture us about being "up for the challenge".
    Quote:
    You don't ask people to believe you.  You just ask them to NOT believe me.

    I don't ask people to believe me, because i'm not interested in preaching anything to anyone. If people are interested in games then I assume they have the intelligence to buy and consume what they enjoy and what they feel is value for their money.
    Quote:
    Do you want to sheck this one for spelling, too?

    Hilarious "intentional spelling error" for comic effect. Sadly it doesn't mask the fact that you genuinely can't spell, a real problem for you due to its contrast with the supercilious nature of your posts and the disdain you show for readers by not bothering to spell check.
     Last edited: by stefc
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
    A Blu-ray crack fiend
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    Posts: 1,127
    Posted:
    PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
    All I ask for is PROOF!  If you can't provide it, why bother posting this "garbage"?
    To err is human...
    -----------
    473 Blu-ray Titles
    DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
    Alien with an attitude
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    Reputation: Highest Rating
    United States Posts: 13,201
    Posted:
    PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
    Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
    Quote:
    All I ask for is PROOF!  If you can't provide it, why bother posting this "garbage"?





    No, seriously?
    No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
    There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
    Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
    The Centauri learned this lesson once.
    We will teach it to them again.
    Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
    - Citizen G'Kar
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantBattling Butler
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    Posts: 811
    Posted:
    PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
    Quoting stefc:
    Quote:
    Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
    Quote:
    We SHOULD all know be now that games that and developed from the ground up on each platform ends to look and/or play better than the Xbox 360 version.  Oblivion, DiRT, and COD4 are some examples.

    GARBAGE (including your english).
    Madden 08 - 30fps on PS3, 60fps on 360, Skate - noticeable lag and slowdown on PS3 compared to 360, PES 2008, noticeable lag and slowdown on PS3, COD4 is unreleased, you have no clue if it will run any different between the 2 systems.
    Quote:
    There are NO complex native 1080p games on the Xbox 360 or coming to the Xbox 360 in the foreseeable future. There are more than a few complex native 1080p games coming to the PS3 in the foreseeable future.

    GARBAGE.
    What is a "complex native 1080p" game? That term is subjective drivel dressed up as one of your objective "FACTS".
    Quote:
    Why do games like Forza 2 and PGR4 not look as good as GT5?  If the Xbox 360 is capable of better graphics and/or physics, why aren't we seeing that?  The xbox 360 has been out a ENTIRE year longer than the PS3.

    GARBAGE.
    GT5 is not finished yet. What are you basing your opinion on? The japanese demo of a demo of GT5? Have you played Forza 2 and PGR4? Are you going by screenshots? Or just paraphrasing from ps3fanboy.com?
    Quote:
    Drive speed between Blu-ray (PS3) and DVD (Xbox 360). ...blablabla... 1x DVD is 10Mbps.

    GARBAGE.
    If the wait and cost involved with choosing BD over DVD means that games have to store the data multiple times to match read speeds, it was a TERRIBLE decision. PS3 games are on 25GB BD discs, DVD are 9GB so essentially for better or matching load times, the extra space is wasted.
    Quote:
    Also, developers for Xbox 360 games (like PGR4) said they had to cut out some content due to lack of space on a DVD9.  The developers of Assassin's Creed and GTA IV expressed difficulty in trying to deal with the space constraints of DVD9. 

    They have NEVER shown these 2 games running on PS3. NEVER. Every demonstration or video from both games is from the 360 build. Care to tell us why? And the rest of Ubi's statement that you are quoting from explains the difficulty of programming for PS3's limited memory - "How we handle memory is really different between the two machines and we're struggling right now on the PS3." See how easy it is to take statements out of context for the purpose of retarded internet forum console arguments?
    Quote:
    Rockstar said this is why L.A. Noire will not be on the Xbox 360.

    I guess thats why its been delayed till 2009 then?
    Quote:
    IS it difficult to program for the PS3?  Yes.  Will it help them be more capable of taking advantage of multi-core processors that are becoming the norm?  Of course, it will.  Do people fight progress tooth and nail?  Absolutely!  The PS3 is a great advancement in technology and the KEY to real-time Ray-Tracing.  Learning to program for the PS3 will get developers use to the PS4 which I believe will have 2 Cell processors in it.

    GARBAGE.
    The cell is not a symmetric multi-core chip, whereas the xenon, and all new pc cpus, are. Cell cannot profit from regular multi-threading, as it does not have symmetric cores. I don't care what you "believe" the PS4 will have in it, neither does anyone else. The Sony plan for the PS3 was 10 year lifespan, there is little chance of the ibm cell still being a viable CPU option in even 4 or 5 years time. Real-time ray tracing - you are so clueless its gone past funny and reached pitiful.
    Quote:
    Remember, extremely advanced technology usually has a steep learning curve involved.  In the end, this will allow people to see what developers are up for the challenge and which ones are not.  From that blog you posted, that develop ISN'T up for the challenge (and he doesn't know the hardware).

    GARBAGE.
    Lets see you program games as successful as Guitar Hero and then you can lecture us about being "up for the challenge".
    Quote:
    You don't ask people to believe you.  You just ask them to NOT believe me.

    I don't ask people to believe me, because i'm not interested in preaching anything to anyone. If people are interested in games then I assume they have the intelligence to buy and consume what they enjoy and what they feel is value for their money.
    Quote:
    Do you want to sheck this one for spelling, too?

    Hilarious "intentional spelling error" for comic effect. Sadly it doesn't mask the fact that you genuinely can't spell, a real problem for you due to its contrast with the supercilious nature of your posts and the disdain you show for readers by not bothering to spell check.



    Yes, remember ... the great A_S only posts F A C T S!  Facts cooked up in his own head 
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAscended_Saiyan
    A Blu-ray crack fiend
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    Posts: 1,127
    Posted:
    PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
    Quoting Battling Butler:
    Quote:
    Quoting stefc:
    Quote:
    Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
    Quote:
    We SHOULD all know be now that games that and developed from the ground up on each platform ends to look and/or play better than the Xbox 360 version.  Oblivion, DiRT, and COD4 are some examples.

    GARBAGE (including your english).
    Madden 08 - 30fps on PS3, 60fps on 360, Skate - noticeable lag and slowdown on PS3 compared to 360, PES 2008, noticeable lag and slowdown on PS3, COD4 is unreleased, you have no clue if it will run any different between the 2 systems.
    Quote:
    There are NO complex native 1080p games on the Xbox 360 or coming to the Xbox 360 in the foreseeable future. There are more than a few complex native 1080p games coming to the PS3 in the foreseeable future.

    GARBAGE.
    What is a "complex native 1080p" game? That term is subjective drivel dressed up as one of your objective "FACTS".
    Quote:
    Why do games like Forza 2 and PGR4 not look as good as GT5?  If the Xbox 360 is capable of better graphics and/or physics, why aren't we seeing that?  The xbox 360 has been out a ENTIRE year longer than the PS3.

    GARBAGE.
    GT5 is not finished yet. What are you basing your opinion on? The japanese demo of a demo of GT5? Have you played Forza 2 and PGR4? Are you going by screenshots? Or just paraphrasing from ps3fanboy.com?
    Quote:
    Drive speed between Blu-ray (PS3) and DVD (Xbox 360). ...blablabla... 1x DVD is 10Mbps.

    GARBAGE.
    If the wait and cost involved with choosing BD over DVD means that games have to store the data multiple times to match read speeds, it was a TERRIBLE decision. PS3 games are on 25GB BD discs, DVD are 9GB so essentially for better or matching load times, the extra space is wasted.
    Quote:
    Also, developers for Xbox 360 games (like PGR4) said they had to cut out some content due to lack of space on a DVD9.  The developers of Assassin's Creed and GTA IV expressed difficulty in trying to deal with the space constraints of DVD9. 

    They have NEVER shown these 2 games running on PS3. NEVER. Every demonstration or video from both games is from the 360 build. Care to tell us why? And the rest of Ubi's statement that you are quoting from explains the difficulty of programming for PS3's limited memory - "How we handle memory is really different between the two machines and we're struggling right now on the PS3." See how easy it is to take statements out of context for the purpose of retarded internet forum console arguments?
    Quote:
    Rockstar said this is why L.A. Noire will not be on the Xbox 360.

    I guess thats why its been delayed till 2009 then?
    Quote:
    IS it difficult to program for the PS3?  Yes.  Will it help them be more capable of taking advantage of multi-core processors that are becoming the norm?  Of course, it will.  Do people fight progress tooth and nail?  Absolutely!  The PS3 is a great advancement in technology and the KEY to real-time Ray-Tracing.  Learning to program for the PS3 will get developers use to the PS4 which I believe will have 2 Cell processors in it.

    GARBAGE.
    The cell is not a symmetric multi-core chip, whereas the xenon, and all new pc cpus, are. Cell cannot profit from regular multi-threading, as it does not have symmetric cores. I don't care what you "believe" the PS4 will have in it, neither does anyone else. The Sony plan for the PS3 was 10 year lifespan, there is little chance of the ibm cell still being a viable CPU option in even 4 or 5 years time. Real-time ray tracing - you are so clueless its gone past funny and reached pitiful.
    Quote:
    Remember, extremely advanced technology usually has a steep learning curve involved.  In the end, this will allow people to see what developers are up for the challenge and which ones are not.  From that blog you posted, that develop ISN'T up for the challenge (and he doesn't know the hardware).

    GARBAGE.
    Lets see you program games as successful as Guitar Hero and then you can lecture us about being "up for the challenge".
    Quote:
    You don't ask people to believe you.  You just ask them to NOT believe me.

    I don't ask people to believe me, because i'm not interested in preaching anything to anyone. If people are interested in games then I assume they have the intelligence to buy and consume what they enjoy and what they feel is value for their money.
    Quote:
    Do you want to sheck this one for spelling, too?

    Hilarious "intentional spelling error" for comic effect. Sadly it doesn't mask the fact that you genuinely can't spell, a real problem for you due to its contrast with the supercilious nature of your posts and the disdain you show for readers by not bothering to spell check.



    Yes, remember ... the great A_S only posts F A C T S!  Facts cooked up in his own head 

    I found this from another programmer.

    Quote:
    Marco had the best response on there I've read thus far. Instead of forcing you the wade through all the PS3/360 fanboy trash to find it I'll just c/p it here:

    "Don't have a lot of time so I'll keep it short:
    1) fillrate -> while it's true that 360 has more raw fillrate than PS3, this is mostly relevant only when extremely simple shaders and alpha blending are involved (particles).
    A few games successfully render particles at lower res on PS3 (well, on 360 as well, see Lost Planet)and almost no one can tell the difference.

    2) shader processing being significantly slower on PS3 -> simply not true, having worked on both platforms I'm very well aware of that. Moreover comments like "which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the ps3 than it does on the 360" makes me understand that you don't know very well how a modern GPU works. You don't need more fillrate to run a more complex shader; shader ALUs and ROPs have been decoupled for a few years now. What you wrote just doesn't make any logical sense here.

    3)processing stuff on SPUs introduce extra latency -> simply false. It's a matter of how you want to implement it. You can do it introducing an extra frame worth of latency..or you can do it in a clever way..(ring buffering? )

    4)The code needed to make the PS3 work is most likely only useful to you on the PS3.. -> This is laughable at best. All best practices needed to improve performance on CELL are going to improve performance on 360 as well (in the general case..).
    Are you telling me that keeping your dataset small, avoiding branchy code, re-organize your data structures so that you access them in a cache (or local stores) friendly way, etc.. is going to make some code run slower on 360? I would like to know why..

    Marco"

    here is his blog link: http://pixelstoomany.wordpress.com/
    from a passing glance the guy knows more about computer graphics than Mr. amateur programmer blogger extrodinair.


    Feel free to check out his blog site listed in the above quote. 

    Here is another link about CLV drives vs. CAV.

    Here is an even BETTER one on CLV vs. CAV.
    To err is human...
    -----------
    473 Blu-ray Titles
     Last edited: by Ascended_Saiyan
        Invelos Forums->General: General Home Theater Discussion Page: 1... 19 20 21 22 23 ...31  Previous   Next