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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Cast for concert documentary |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 1,279 |
| | Posted: | | | | I agree my thinking was wooly rather than the rules. In this case they are uncredited with data taken from the documentary which sounds like it's an extra, not the main feature on the disc which is the concert.
A good example of where the credited elsewhere rule might apply if the main feature is a documentary that credits contributors as they are talking on screen, with no start or end credits. | | | | IVS Registered: January 2, 2002 |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,245 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Lithurge: Quote:
I agree my thinking was wooly rather than the rules. In this case they are uncredited with data taken from the documentary which sounds like it's an extra, not the main feature on the disc which is the concert.
A good example of where the credited elsewhere rule might apply if the main feature is a documentary that credits contributors as they are talking on screen, with no start or end credits. Just to clarify, there is no separate documentary or concert. It's a documentary that features concert footage. |
| | Registered: October 17, 2010 |  Posts: 298 |
| | Posted: | | | | @TheMadMartian: I still don't understand you interpretation of the rules. I will have another try at explaining how I understand them and why I think it is the way how they are meant. - First the rules define standard film credits as films where all actors are appearing in the end credits. - Then the following is said: "For any film with standard credits, take the actor information from the end credits only". This means that we always have to take the actors from the end credits but that in films without standard credits (e.g. the film we are talking about here) it is allowed to complete these with credits from other places in the film. - If there are actors in the opening credits and not in the end credits, these are listed first in the profile. - But! The allowance to add actors "credited elswhere" than opening or end credits comes after two "ifs". Only "if a film does not have standard credits" (this is the case here because the end credits are not complete) and "If a film has no end credits" (this is not the case here). Quote:
So, for this documentary, because these people are credited...they are identified, in print, on screen...and they are not listed in the end credit, this feature does not have standard credits. Since it does not have standard credits, per the rules, those people are added to the list in DVD Profiler before those taken from the end credits.
As I explained above, they can only be added when there are no standard credits and no end credits. Adding credits "before those taken from the end credits" is only allowed for cast credited in the opening credits, this is not the case here. So I am still of the opinion that these people have to be listed as uncredited after the names listed in the end credits. | | | Recently bought films:
The Matrix [Blu-ray] | Shirins Wedding [DVD] | The Graduate [Blu-ray] | Prometheus [Blu-ray 3D] | Hwal [DVD] |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Discostu: Quote:
As I explained above, they can only be added when there are no standard credits and no end credits. Adding credits "before those taken from the end credits" is only allowed for cast credited in the opening credits, this is not the case here.
So I am still of the opinion that these people have to be listed as uncredited after the names listed in the end credits. You are correct, I misspoke...they can not be added before the cast in the end credits. However, because they are credited...they are identified by name on screen...they are not uncredited and can't be added as such. This particular situation is not covered by the rules so they should be added after the regular credited cast. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 5,715 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Discostu: Quote:
- First the rules define standard film credits as films where all actors are appearing in the end credits. I don't think, this interpretion is substantial. - Nearly every feature has extras and/or cameos which are not credited within the end credits... But you didn't quote correctly! - The text reads: For the purposes of this section we define "standard" film credits as those where all credited actors involved are listed at the end of the film...So the question, we are confronted with, is: Did the producers intend to list all credited participants in the end credits. If the answer is yes - and we can't know - then we have standard credits at the end of the documentary and all other appering persons are to be handled uncredited. If the answer is no, then they should be treated as credited elsewhere. From my point of view and my (little) experience with documentaries - and I can't judge if the current example lays the same way - I'd say that the producers credit the cast that is professionally involved in making the documentary. They usually don't credit persons who are interviewed as themselves - sometimes this persons are credited in a "Thanks to..." section. Therefore I'd call the end credits as complete - which make them standard credits - and any other participants uncredited. | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 3,436 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
From my point of view and my (little) experience with documentaries - and I can't judge if the current example lays the same way - I'd say that the producers credit the cast that is professionally involved in making the documentary. They usually don't credit persons who are interviewed as themselves - sometimes this persons are credited in a "Thanks to..." section. Therefore I'd call the end credits as complete - which make them standard credits - and any other participants uncredited. This is exactly how I see it.  | | | Achim [諾亞信； Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan.
Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative) |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
From my point of view and my (little) experience with documentaries - and I can't judge if the current example lays the same way - I'd say that the producers credit the cast that is professionally involved in making the documentary. They usually don't credit persons who are interviewed as themselves - sometimes this persons are credited in a "Thanks to..." section. Therefore I'd call the end credits as complete - which make them standard credits - and any other participants uncredited. I just don't get this at all. The people interviewed, on screen, have their names shown on screen. That is the very definition of a credit, so how can they be 'uncredited'? | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,436 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
I just don't get this at all. The people interviewed, on screen, have their names shown on screen. That is the very definition of a credit, so how can they be 'uncredited'? It is based on this: Quote:
For the purposes of this section we define "standard" film credits as those where all credited actors involved are listed at the end of the film - defined here as the "end credits". The section details both the actor’s Name and the Role that they played in the film. The credits may be listed "in order of appearance", "alphabetical order" or in an order of importance decided by the filmmakers. Some actors may be credited a second time in either credits at either the opening or close of the film.
For any film with standard credits, take the actor information from the end credits only, with names and roles listed exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited. Exception: If the credit information is entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead. And in the opening post of this thread it was said, that there is a cast list available. he want to add those people that are mentioned on screen, yet not included in the cast list at the end. So for Profiler purposes, these people should be considered uncredited. However, they are easily documented and added to the profile... | | | Achim [諾亞信； Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan.
Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative) |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | I could understand your position if these people weren't credited on screen, but they are. That is what I don't get. Nowhere in the rules does it say a person has to be credited in the opening or closing credits. If their name appears on screen identifying them, and they participated in the making of the film, that is a credit...or am I missing something here?  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,715 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
...or am I missing something here? I think yes  To answer the question, if these guys are uncredited, we have to clear the fact if the end credits are standard credits. That's the criteria - it's of no importance if the persons are credited literally, verbally or in any other form on any place within the feature: if the end credits are standard credits, they are uncredited. | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | I have always credited those Cast members irregardless of where those credits are listed and, as far as I can remember, those profiles have never been declined. | | | | Last edited: by Kathy |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,715 |
| | Posted: | | | | I think, that would be a great bottom line The first to contribute has the most work and should be able to decide how he interpretes the rules. If anyone wants to set (or clear) the uncredited checkboxes afterwards, he should be free... ... as long as both document (justify) their doing in the contribution notes, so followers know where the cast comes from and why the uncredited check boxes are set or not... | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | @Kathy:
Same here. Nowhere do the rules limit the concept of (cast) "credit" to opening and/or end credits. The only definition in the rules concerns standard credits (meaning: if there are credits anywhere outside the end credits, they are not standard credits). What the rules ARE unclear about is where to put them in the cast list - they only specify the location in the cast list if they are in the opening credits, not if they are credited elsewhere. | | | | Last edited: by dee1959jay |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,715 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
Nowhere do the rules limit the concept of (cast) "credit" to opening and/or end credits. The only definition in the rules concerns standard credits (meaning: if there are credits anywhere outside the end credits, they are not standard credits). What the rules ARE unclear about is where to put them in the cast list - they only specify the location in the cast list if they are in the opening credits, not if they are credited elsewhere. That's wrong! The rule reads: Quote:
For any film with standard credits, take the actor information from the end credits only, with names and roles listed exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited. | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
Quoting dee1959jay:
Quote:
Nowhere do the rules limit the concept of (cast) "credit" to opening and/or end credits. The only definition in the rules concerns standard credits (meaning: if there are credits anywhere outside the end credits, they are not standard credits). What the rules ARE unclear about is where to put them in the cast list - they only specify the location in the cast list if they are in the opening credits, not if they are credited elsewhere.
That's wrong!
The rule reads:
Quote:
For any film with standard credits, take the actor information from the end credits only, with names and roles listed exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited. Credits that appear throughout a film are not standard credits therefore this section does not apply. Whenever I run across an area that is not not specifically addressed in the rules or if the rules are being seen differently, I fall back on a post Ken made on these types of issues: http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=667247&messageID=2082773. Quote:
Quoting Ken Cole] "One-off rulings on individual titles are a waste of time - there is always a new twist available to cast a slightly different shade of gray, and users cannot be expected to scour the forums on a title-by-title basis. Similarly, refining and complicating the rules to satisfactorily contain each of these new variants is an exercise in futility.
Local databases can support an infinite variety of variants for title and other fields, and the local locks are available to make those changes permanent. With this in mind, hopefully the supporters on both sides of this and other similar debates can agree that the direction of a decision here is less important that the fact of a decision. Consistency for submission to the online is possible and what we should shoot for. Agreement on how it "should be" is neither possible nor (thankfully) necessary.
We'll be implementing a global edit for contribution evaluator use. This will allow us to make a decision on a particular range of titles and standardize them directly. In this particular case, the titles will be Men in Black, Men in Black II and Men in Black III. Details on the forthcoming implementation will be posted before we begin making any profile changes." It is my experience that these Cast are credited and have been accepted by the voters/screeners and, for consistency sake, this is how it should continue. | | | | Last edited: by Kathy |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
Quoting dee1959jay:
Quote:
Nowhere do the rules limit the concept of (cast) "credit" to opening and/or end credits. The only definition in the rules concerns standard credits (meaning: if there are credits anywhere outside the end credits, they are not standard credits). What the rules ARE unclear about is where to put them in the cast list - they only specify the location in the cast list if they are in the opening credits, not if they are credited elsewhere.
That's wrong!
The rule reads:
Quote:
For any film with standard credits, take the actor information from the end credits only, with names and roles listed exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited. No, YOU're wrong! The condition with which this rule opens ("any film with standard credits") is not fulfilled and hence this rule does NOT apply to this type of situation. | | | | Last edited: by dee1959jay |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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