Unfortunately, puppeteers are not always part of the cadt, in fact more often than not they are part of the crew. Hollywood does not spread Cast data all over the place, it is contained in one place and ONE list, if dancers, puppeteers or even stunt people are part of that list then they are Cast, if they are not then tehy are NOT Cast, they are Crew personnel and are not listed. It's that simple.

Skip

I agree with Paul and CubbyUps... it would be nice to have a fix standard for Dancers, puppeteers, doubles... regardles if Hollywood puts them in direct order or not At least it's the same job they are doing and they are credited in the complete end-credits at all.
Some movie credits would be real hard to profile here strictly following the rules right now (e. g.: "Soylent Green" where cast and crew are nicely mixed...)

Quoting bbbbb:

Quote:
What the rule is telling us, is that puppeteers, actual crew, have to be filed under cast, although not being actors. For not being actors, the regarding restrictive definition of the 'end credits', in distinction from the end credits, does not apply.

No, the rule is telling us what 'standard' credits are and that, if the film has standard credits, we are to copy that section exactly.

Quote:
Else we would file puppeteers sometimes under cast, sometimes under crew, and sometimes even under cast and crew.

That is exactly what we do.  If they are included in the 'standard credits', as defined by the rules, then they get treated as cast.  If they aren't, then they get treated as crew and are left out.  It is fairly simple.

Quoting Unicus69:

Quote:
Actually, he is correct.  From the rules:

Quote:
For the purposes of this section we define "standard" film credits as those where all credited actors involved are listed together in a single section at the end of the film - defined here as the "end credits". The section details both the actor’s Name and the Role that they played in the film.
(...)
If puppeteers are included in the end credits include them and append (puppeteer) at the end of the role.

As you can see, the rules define 'end credits' as the cast list, not the entire end credit crawl.  Puppeteers can only be entered when they are part of the cast list.  If they are further down in the crew section, they can not be entered.

Actually, I read the definitions in the rules differently.
"standard" film credits - those where all credited actors involved are listed together in a single section at the end of the film
"end credits" - all credits at the end of the film
"standard" film credits can only appear in the "end credits", but the "end credits" may not include a "standard" film credits section.

If "standard" film credits is actually supposed to be the same definition as "end credits", then the rules need major corrections:-

Quote:
If a film does not have standard credits, use the following rules:
• If a film has actors listed in the opening credits, which are not listed in the end credits, add these to the list in DVD Profiler before those taken from the end credits

If there are no standard credits, and the end credits are the same definition as "standard credits", this rule is useless: by definition, if there are no standard credits, there are no end credits, so why state you need to place the opening credits before the end credits?

Quote:
• If a film has no end credits, but does have actors credited elsewhere, enter the actors from those credits.

Again, no standard credits means no end credits, so the wording of this rule is superfluous.

If, as I believe, that "standard" film credits just refers to the section within the "end credits" which lists actors and their roles (sometimes starting with "Cast List", "List of Players", etc. sometimes not), then things are less confusing, but equally problematic

Quote:
For any film with standard credits, take the actor information from the end credits only, with names and roles listed exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited

This seems strange, as it instructs to take actor information (CAST) from the whole end credits, not just the "standard" credits. The only point of this rule is to therefore exclude cast from the opening credits, or anywhere else in the film.

Quote:
In addition to the above, the following rules should be followed:
• If puppeteers are included in the end credits include them and append (puppeteer) at the end of the role.

That means anywhere at the end, not just the "standard" credits 

To me, this shows the rules are not clear 

I believe the terms "Standard Film Credits", "End Credits" & "Opening Credits" need to be clearer definitions.
Those terms then need to be used consistently within the actual rules, to prevent ambiguity. Having two different terms defined to the same thing is just asking for trouble 

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
Lewpy:

In ANY given area someone can ALWAYS make the Rules unclear. This is why in our lives we have some of the ridiculous laws that we hav e because somewhere somebody decided that it was unclear and decided upon his own interpretation and got in trouble for it. The Rules are not intended to be difficult, they are also not inbtended to strangle the user and make it so complex that users won't Contribute, which we are rapidly getting to. This has been explained for you by two people with knowledge of the objective and both were correct. If you WANT the Ruke to be unclear, it always be so, my suggestion let it go. If you want puppeteer data that is not part of the cast no one is preventing you from doing so locally. Why must every little issue be Contributable?

Skip

Skip,
I have no desire either way as to the puppeteers 
I do have issue when the rule definitions are readable two different ways: if I can see two different ways, then other people will, or a percentage will read it one way or the other  that leads to different viewpoints and arguments ... "Bad" 
I agree that the rules should not be overly complex, but that does not rule out being clear [and concise!].
I know there are certain individuals that have been here since the "Dawn of the Rules", and are more aware of the intent of the rules than the rest of us. Indeed, there are those here with more intimate knowledge of the film making process and the terms banded about by "Holywood" and the industry, which is great. But how does this help users who want to make a contribution? They [hopefully!] read the rules and take that as guidance: there is no compunction to cross-reference everything with more knowledgable individuals in the forums. Indeed, the only two authoritive voices of Invelos I have seen in the forums are those of Ken & Geri, so who should you take guidance from?

A lot of the more bitter arguments I have witnessed on the forums lately are down to interpretation of the rules, even if they don't seem at first glance. I believe that a little time spent tidying and clarifying the rules [note: NOT changing the rules] would help, particularly for those who's native, first language is not English.

Lewis.
P.s. I am trying hard not to be a ninnyhammer 

Quoting Unicus69:

Quote:

Quote:
Else we would file puppeteers sometimes under cast, sometimes under crew, and sometimes even under cast and crew.

That is exactly what we do.  If they are included in the 'standard credits', as defined by the rules, then they get treated as cast.  If they aren't, then they get treated as crew and are left out.  It is fairly simple.

It may be simple (i'm not claiming it's difficult and i have no problem understanding the rule), but it's also incomplete. We'll never have all puppeteers (or stunt or dancers) because of the wording of the rules.

As i said before, we should either always include them (either with cast of crew, i don't care) or never. Don't decide to include or not include them based on the position of the credits or the absence of a space after the cast list. Again this doesn't make sense and is incomplete.

Paul

Quoting paulb_99:

Quote:
It may be simple (i'm not claiming it's difficult and i have no problem understanding the rule), but it's also incomplete. We'll never have all puppeteers (or stunt or dancers) because of the wording of the rules.

As i said before, we should either always include them (either with cast of crew, i don't care) or never. Don't decide to include or not include them based on the position of the credits or the absence of a space after the cast list. Again this doesn't make sense and is incomplete.

I don't know why the rule was written the way it was.  Whether or not it makes sense, I guess that depends on your point of view.  Clearly, the people who wrote the rules thought they made perfect sense.  Personally, I would prefer to leave them all out as I honestly don't care about them, but I can live with the current method.