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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Larry/O./Williams, Jr. |
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| Author |
Message |
  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote:
Locally, I've standardized on all suffixes to use the punctuation. I then use credited as to reflect what's actually on-screen for the individual profiles. Using the Downey example, my single entry in the cast database is Robert Downey, Jr. Now, all of the individual profiles are credited as where appropriate. How exactly this is leading me down some dark path to disaster is a mystery to me. All I know is that all my Downey films are linked together yet the credits exactly reflect what's on-screen. I've lately been spending a bunch of time extending this basic concept across all cast/crew with suffixes and everything is coming together nicely. CLT be damned.
Perhaps "disaster" is code for "problem solved"? You be the judge. I've done the exact same thing. It's great: consistency, accuracy, ease of entering, yet we retain the exact on-screen credit. There really is no downside. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Tim:
Accuracy= ZERO. If the On Screen data says, Jr. and you wnat to enter Jr.
Ease of Entry=You get that one
Consistency +yours
Retention of EXACT On Screen=Utter nonsense you are entering an interpretation of On Screen if it says , Jr. nd you enter Jr.
Two out of four, you LOSE. If you don't understand "disaster" midnit. You need look no further than IMDb. This program does not need to be a clone of inaccuracy. Again i encourage you, if you want standardized data and the ability to enter data however you want to do iot and even without documentation , then go use IMDb. Its perfect for people who are not interested in accuracy, and whose only focus in life is ease of entry. You can also track 10,000 titles for FREE.<shrugs> PLEASE.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Tim:
Accuracy= ZERO. If the On Screen data says, Jr. and you wnat to enter Jr.
Ease of Entry=You get that one
Consistency +yours
Retention of EXACT On Screen=Utter nonsense you are entering an interpretation of On Screen if it says , Jr. nd you enter Jr.
Two out of four, you LOSE. If you don't understand "disaster" midnit. You need look no further than IMDb. This program does not need to be a clone of inaccuracy. Again i encourage you, if you want standardized data and the ability to enter data however you want to do iot and even without documentation , then go use IMDb. Its perfect for people who are not interested in accuracy, and whose only focus in life is ease of entry. You can also track 10,000 titles for FREE.<shrugs> PLEASE.
Skip You should read more carefully. Mdnitoil said: " I've standardized on all suffixes to use the punctuation. I then use credited as to reflect what's actually on-screen for the individual profiles." So we don't get two out of four like you said, but four out of four: accuracy, consistency, ease of entry, and retention of exact on-screen data. As I said before: there really is no downside. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | That to me, doesn't sound like ease of entry, Tim. You setting up bogus results in the CLT, following your standardization. Now i know that you believe incorrectly that the Alias system is the center of profiler, it is a FEATURE and the results for that feature are based on accurate data entry. So, if are entering interpreted data, then you are not entering ACCURATE data and I don't care what the interpretation is. Now, of course, midnit and you are both free to adopt whatever you wish locally. that is your realm as mine is my realm.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: June 3, 2007 | | Posts: 333 |
| | Posted: | | | | I am not sure what other database you think enters into this Skip.
A valid point was raised and it should be addressed one way or another. Like you, I would prefer to see a programmatic solution. It should certainly be possible.
If we have to deal with it via (heaven forbid) rule updates, dropping punctuation altogether is a bang up suggestion. It's not ambiguous and it's easy to tell if a submission is toeing the line. A filter could probably be put in place to force it quite easily.
I am all for accuracy, but "accurate" punctuation of name suffixes is not on my list of priorities. I like my names to link and make no bones about it. I can see why someone might want to note that Robin Williams was credited as "Marty Fromage" in Shakes the Clown, but I can't see any value in differentiating between "Robert Downey, Jr.", "Robert Downey Jr." or "Robert Downey Jr".
A programmatic solution to ignore punctuation on linking would be the best approach. It would keep everyone happy and save lots of silly arguments. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Snark:
Dropping punctuation is not a bang up idea, it is a standard already adopted by another database. So IF and I repeat IF this is done I would say go in a different direction. Which would be use the punctuation.
It also does NOT HAVE to be addressed, we have a Rule and we follow it. If you want to set your own rule locally you have that prerogative and i won't argue the point. But if it is a departure from what appears On Screen, it is no different than the p[eople who want to be able to interpret data by adding data that does not appear On Screen.
Now as I have said previously had we gone with a simple association system this would not be an issue but... Standatdization of ANY data to anyone's personal preference, whichj is what this is plain and simple, that belongs in only one place...your local.
I also have a feeling that the programmatic sounds easy to implement but would not be so in actual; practice.
It's a chain and if TIM is accomodated the the next one has to be and so on and pretty soon we have NO ACCURACY at all, i fact we risk returning to the bad old days. So, you want to standardize, fine...LOCALLY.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
That to me, doesn't sound like ease of entry, Tim. You setting up bogus results in the CLT, following your standardization. Now i know that you believe incorrectly that the Alias system is the center of profiler, it is a FEATURE and the results for that feature are based on accurate data entry. So, if are entering interpreted data, then you are not entering ACCURATE data and I don't care what the interpretation is. Now, of course, midnit and you are both free to adopt whatever you wish locally. that is your realm as mine is my realm.
Skip Um....I honestly think that you are misunderstanding what we are doing. The CLT is going to report a list of profiles based on how a name was finally entered in a given profile. Whether I decide to use a base name of Robert Downey, Jr. or Robert Downey Jr. is completely immaterial. The CLT will still return a proportinate number of hits for both variations based on final credited form. The rules currently tell us to choose a base name. The only point we're making is that this base name is arbitrary based on awful CLT results. Why even bother with arbritrary results for these suffix names when we can all agree that all suffixes do/do not contain punctuation? It doesn't really matter what we choose since the final result will still be accurate. Obviously it doesn't matter what we choose because the current rule has us choosing any number of possibilities. We still have to enter the names as credited in the profile no matter what base name we're told to use. Frankly, the data in my local is far more accurate than the online. How you can suggest that this makes things innacurate tells me that you either don't understand what we're doing or don't understand how the CLT functions. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Yes but you want to pre-determine the most COMMON name based upon your wishes NOT the results, which may not be factually the MOST COMMON Name. You may not see it as inaccurate but factually it certainly is. Your wishes are local matters not Online issues. I did not choose the Alias system and if we were using simple association this would not even be an issue, it shouldn't be an issue under the system as ken designed.
As I said its a chain, each one of these weakens the chain and pretty sonn, we have nothing.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,372 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Nadja: Quote:
[...]
EDIT: Edited to condescendingly capitalise words that don't need highlighting.  |
| | Registered: June 3, 2007 | | Posts: 333 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Snark:
Dropping punctuation is not a bang up idea, it is a standard already adopted by another database. So IF and I repeat IF this is done I would say go in a different direction. Which would be use the punctuation.
It also does NOT HAVE to be addressed, we have a Rule and we follow it. If you want to set your own rule locally you have that prerogative and i won't argue the point. But if it is a departure from what appears On Screen, it is no different than the p[eople who want to be able to interpret data by adding data that does not appear On Screen.
Now as I have said previously had we gone with a simple association system this would not be an issue but... Standatdization of ANY data to anyone's personal preference, whichj is what this is plain and simple, that belongs in only one place...your local.
I also have a feeling that the programmatic sounds easy to implement but would not be so in actual; practice.
It's a chain and if TIM is accomodated the the next one has to be and so on and pretty soon we have NO ACCURACY at all, i fact we risk returning to the bad old days. So, you want to standardize, fine...LOCALLY.
Skip Yawn. I get that you don't like some database, but it's relevence here is zero. No one is arguing about what the rules state now. The question is are they right? They're obviously inadequate to dealing with this issue and the complication of the CLT should not be added to a meaningless issue like this IMO. Personally I have a hard time pretending that punctuation is part of a name outside of hyphenation. As far as accuracy goes... well, we've already bit the bullet and are representing them in the wrong font... we're breaking the name down into 3 boxes and we have guidlines for that. Clarifying suffix punctuation is in the same vein. You can always obfusticate (er... make accurate) your local database if you like.  Dealing with it programmatically wouldn't be difficult. It would take some extra database columns to be efficient, but it should be simple enough for it to internally reduce "Robert Downey, Jr." and "Robert Downey Jr." to "Robert Downey Jr" and recognize that they're the same guy. I respect your opinion Skip, but on this one I think punctuation has little to do with accuracy and what minimal (I'll be generous and assume there is some) benefit we get from knowing that Robert Downey Jr had a comma in his credit in one film but not the other is outweighed by the benefits of doing it right and standardizing. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | And I have a hard time pretending that punctuation is NOT part of the name, snark. You are talking about a personal preference, keep it LOCAL, it does NOT belong in the Online. AT ALL.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | And due to copyright issues I do not want to risk your format since it has been adopted as standard by another suit happy company. So I repeat IF we are to do this YOUR way is not the the way.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Hmmmmm.....I wonder if a company can actually copyright the absence of commas and periods in names.
Somehow, I seriously doubt it. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that the last discussion on standardisation occurred pre Invelos as I certainly can't remember ever seeing one.
In that case, won't it have occurred when we didn't have the "credited as" field and so weren't able to have a standardised name but still keep a record of the actual credit? Isn't that why it was decided against?
If that's the case, then I think it's high time we do discuss it again. As the way we enter credits into the program has changed, it certainly seems reasonable to re-evaluate how we enter the credits into the program. | | | | Last edited: by northbloke |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Hal<
They may not be able to. But that's not the point. They could lose legally and still win, all they would have to do is force ken to spend lots of money defending himself and perhaps run Invelos into the ground. are you not familiar with predatory business practices. So wheteher they could win legally or not is not relevant. Do we want to risk it...I DON'T, and i would hope that ken would understand that as well.
I am stunned that i have to actually explain this concept, it's obvious for anyone who has even the slightest understanding of business.
If it weren't for a certain company being well-known to be suit happy and predatory, I wouldn't care one way or the other.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 775 |
| | Posted: | | | | You are kidding, right? You're not seriously suggesting that to standardise without the comma would be to invite lawsuits? |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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