I had, of course, tested extensively before I posted here. My findings were:

Quote:
the current filter seems to be something along the lines of "for DVD Profiler purposes, every first letter of every first word entered into any of the three name fields is capitalized, except for known articles, of which the first letter may or may not be capitalized"

And this filter can't have existed long - I'm absolutely sure I was able to contribute such credits without problems up until very recently (proven by the presence of, for instance, quite a few Tim deZarn entries in the database).

Quoting T!M:

Quote:
Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
Another case of the caps issue, terry. the program cannot recognize the difference between upper and lower, same as the last actor you asked about. Pick one and use the Credited As system when needed.

I'm sorry, but I have to wonder: do you actually bother to read the threads you post in, or do you just glance at the subject line? Additionally, Terry (widescreenforever), where you're addressing your reply to, hasn't even posted in this thread...
..

Skip always has me on his mind when he is working...... 

Tim DeZarn | Tim Dezarn | Tim de Zarn | Tim deZarn

"Tim DeZarn" is credited in the following 169 titles (337 profiles):
"Tim Dezarn" is credited in the following 169 titles (337 profiles):
"Tim deZarn" is credited in the following 169 titles (337 profiles):
"Tim de Zarn" is credited in the following 152 titles (338 profiles):

loool (btw. CLT sucks without using brainpower  )

Quoting madacid:

Quote:
Tim DeZarn | Tim Dezarn | Tim de Zarn | Tim deZarn

"Tim DeZarn" is credited in the following 169 titles (337 profiles):
"Tim Dezarn" is credited in the following 169 titles (337 profiles):
"Tim deZarn" is credited in the following 169 titles (337 profiles):
"Tim de Zarn" is credited in the following 152 titles (338 profiles):

loool (btw. CLT sucks without using brainpower  )

Like most databases DVDProfiler doesn't differentiate between different capitalizations of the (otherwise) same word.
So it comes as no surprise that the results for the first three queries are identical, for the database they are identical.
That's what Hal meant when he stated that you can't use the CLT as a source for capitalization questions.

Quoting goblinsdoitall:

Quote:
But there's absolutely no sense in contributions like Tim deZarn [credited as Tim DeZarn], it simply doesn't effect the CLT at all.

You, too, apparently haven't read this thread in it's entirety either, as the "Tim deZarn [credited as Tim DeZarn]" enter you refer to ISN'T EVEN POSSIBLE anymore! Although for the record, I'll gladly tell you what the sense in such an entry would be: it's not about affecting the CLT, it is about matching the actual credits. Per the rules, all cast and crew data that we enter must match the credits EXACTLY, whether that value is put into the name fields or into the "credited as" field. Using "credited as" is the ONLY way to record capitalization differences. Look: either we're after "as credited" data, or we're not.

I'll ask you the same question again: how do we now enter an on-screen credit of "Tim deZarn"? And more importantly: how do we ensure everyone does this the same way? Saying "doesn't really matter" is a disaster - that way everyone does as he pleases ("Tim DeZarn"? "Tim de Zarn [Tim deZarn]"? "Tim DeZarn [Tim deZarn]"?)... We really do need a general approach of handling these.

Quoting RHo:

Quote:
You can either contribute "Tim deZarn" or "Tim DeZarn". Both will be stored as "Tim DeZarn" in the online database after filter conversion

So essentially, that means I can only contribute "Tim DeZarn".

Quote:
and everybody is on the same page.

Are they? I'm afraid not. If I'm profiling a new 'Die Hard 4' profile, and I see the "Tim deZarn" credit on-screen, what will I enter? Do I enter "Tim deZarn", which will then be changed to "Tim DeZarn" for the online database? That wouldn't match the credits, which we are, per the rules, supposed to be striving for. Or do I enter "Tim DeZarn, credited as Tim deZarn"? That DOES match the credits. I assure you that everybody is NOT on the same page: as it is, both these methods will be used, with users from both camps voting "no" against the other method (I know I will), and then there's the third method already in the database: quite a large number of profiles that already HAVE "Tim deZarn" entries that aren't affected by this new filter yet. The latter can't be reproduced anymore, which will mean those existing profiles will have to be updated for consistency's sake. But how? By changing them to "DeZarn" which doesn't match the credits? Or by using the "credited as" field to retain the correct value? Again: either we're after "as credited" data, or we're not. I for one am not exactly overjoyed at the prospect of the slippery slope that says "well, we're after as credited cast and crew data, EXCEPT when [fill in the blank]". What's next?

And if we suddenly DO allow exceptions to the rule that says "list names exactly as they are in the credits" (bolding from the rules, not added by me), can we then get additional filters installed for dealing with the lack/presence of a comma preceding suffixes? Or for dealing with the lack/presence of a space between initials? If the general consensus is, as you propose, "the fact that the credit says [...] is not important anymore", then I could think of a whole bunch of improvements...  Mind you, I'm all for that, but as it is, I'm having a little trouble with that "list names exactly as they are in the credits" line from the rules. As of yet, that line tells me that if I see a "Tim deZarn" credit on the screen, that I should enter it "exactly" as such. To me, "exactly" includes capitalization. You'll understand that before I start stripping all that painstakingly verified data from my database, I'd like to be absolutely sure that we're never going to need it again.

Quoting goblinsdoitall:

Quote:
You can and have to credit him exactly the way he is credited in the endcredits

Of course we can, yes, I understood that. But I don't buy that we HAVE to at all - not anymore: since the contribution system no longer recognizes the difference, there's no point in doing so. It's just like the "20th" to "Twentieth" filter that Ken installed for Fox: technically you can still maintain "20th" locally, but for DVD Profiler purposes we use "Twentieth", and the filter will convert this upon contributing. So you can't really contribute it: yes, you can choose to maintain "deZarn" locally, but if you actually click "contribute", the system ensures that you actually contribute "DeZarn". So I still stand by my "essentially, I can only contribute "Tim DeZarn" comment - I did read properly.    It's nice that Ken lets us do what we want locally, but personally, I'm perfectly happy to apply any Invelos standards to my local database as well. I'm not fighting for my own preference here - I just want everyone to be on the same page as much as possible. If the Invelos name formatting standard is that, for our purposes, names always begin with a capital letter (known articles excluded), I'll gladly apply that standard locally as well. I'd just like to have heard about it, instead of someone accidentally noticing this when doing a contribution, and then heaving to guess at what the exact consequences are going to be.

Ken DOES seem to be following this thread, because I see things have changed a bit more - yesterday existing entries for "Tim deZarn" still appeared in tact in existing profiles (i.e. when I looked at profiles for, say, 'Die Hard 4' yesterday, they still showed as credited "Tim deZarn" entries), and now these have been changed as well: there are now no more "Tim deZarn" entries in the database: they've all been changed to "Tim DeZarn". As a result, lots of them are now at odds with the with the "list names exactly as they are in the credits" rule. No matter how many times I look at it, the credits for this guy mostly don't show "Tim DeZarn", so it's not "listed exactly as it is in the credits".

So as it is, we're still a bit in the dark. I've tested extensively once again, and the ONLY way to retain the on-screen credit both locally and online, is using "Tim DeZarn, credited as Tim deZarn". If we're no longer supposed to record the exact on-screen credit, I'd like to hear about it. Preferably a note detailing this and any other possible exceptions should be added to the rules.

Quoting goblinsdoitall:

Quote:
If you didn't get it now ... I think nobody is able to help you.

Right back at ya! Seriously, though, I'll try once more. First: you seem to claim that nothing changed over the past few days - that certainly isn't true, and others in this thread will confirm for you that something significant HAS changed (for instance: yesterday, the 'Die Hard 4' profiles all had "Tim deZarn" entries; today they have "Tim DeZarn" entries). Denying it won't make it go away. I'm now mostly interested in the consequences this has. Hear me out, and keep in mind that I'm talking about PROFILES, both local and online, and not about the CLT (why you keep quoting CLT results at me I honestly don't understand - it has nothing to do with it, and I never even mentioned the CLT to begin with):

The rules say to "list names exactly as they are in the credits". To me, "exactly" includes capitalization. That's what I've always been told, too. With me so far? Well, as it is now, the ONLY way to capture the actual credit for this guy in say 'Die Hard 4', 'Spider-Man' or 'Seinfeld', is to use "Tim DeZarn, credited as Tim deZarn". I repeat: that's the ONLY way to retain the exact on-screen credit. Again: I'm not talking about what this means for the CLT (nothing, obviously, and I never claimed otherwise), but simply about following the rules that tell us to "list names exactly as they are in the credits" when entering a set of cast credits. That's all. Still with me?

As it is, we're going to have two camps of people dealing with an on-screen credit of "Tim deZarn" in two different ways. One camp will enter "Tim DeZarn" (if not locally, then at least after it has passed through Invelos contribution filter). That seems simple enough, but it doesn't match what's on the screen for most of his credits (but not all of them, which complicates matters ever further). Another camp will enter "Tim DeZarn, credited as Tim deZarn". With that, his name is listed "exactly" as it's shown in the credits, as per the contribution rules. You can hardly call that "wrong", now can you?

The bottom line is that without further clarification, the recent changes mean we're now stuck with two groups of users handling this in entirely different ways. I'd like to have that cleared up. Is that so strange?