I just wishes that any changes to rules only applied to future profiles. The constant fiddling / changing / tweaking with profiles that have been completed (and which everybody is happy with) puzzles me.

If people had wanted to remove Special edition crew then they would have already done this. If they were happy they were included then they will now have to lock their profiles and if like me (don't care either way) then I will just ignore the change.

I've noticed this with any change that is done to the rules - immediately loads of profiles get submitted to change them.

Surely that was never the intent, instead shouldn't the rules be there to clarify any future contributions of data?

Don't worry, hal, it was intended to get a chuckle. I give people credit for understanding things sometimes that perhaps i shouldn't, simply because I don't want to write a Doctoral thesis on every topic, which i could do.

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Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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I am not saying a user convention hasn't helped in certain cases/areas... what I am saying is that a user convention can not be forced upon everyone that submits profiles. You can not force people to accept a user convention. And there will a lot of times (willing to say most the time) you will not get everyone to agree with any convention.

Basically you can not force people to agree, contribute and vote on one convention when it comes to something that is not in the rules. And to say accept something as a convention if a certain profile goes through  (to me) seems completely idiotic. (IMO)

I agree with you, Pete.  I am not an advoctae of trying to implement "user conventions" in the place of Rules.

And I understand that "user conventions" can only get limited exposure to the user base, but it can be communicated to everyone who contributes through the contribution voting system.  No one expects everyone to agree on everything, but the voting system allows everyone to at least express their position to the screeners.

What I do have a problem with is someone trying to overturn a "user convention" without a change in the Rules, based on a "newly discovered" hole in the Rules or by asserting that it is not "excluded" by the Rules.

I understand that Hal... unfortunately since it is not in the rules there is only so much you can do about it. If you get a new group of users... or a group of users that has changed their mind on the subject... it very well could change since the only thing we can completely enforce is the rules.

This is the reason why if there is something we feel strongly about we need to get it changed/added in the rules... that is the only sure-fire way to do it that I see.

That is the problem with a user convention... you can't make it last if enough people is against it. And you know how easily people change their minds... especially when something unexpected comes up that they didn't think of before (which could show up years later).

Quoting EnryWiki:

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Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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But what I am saying is you can not stop the ping pongs like that. For every person that will agree to such a thing you can have another... or even 2 or 3 that will not agree to such a thing.

There is too many people with strong feelings on either side of any argument around here for such a thing to work. and you can not force people to go by any type of user convention when only a significantly small portion of the userbase comes to these forums. You can not force people to agree, contribute and vote on one spacific user convention. If it is not in the rules a certain way... or if Ken/Gerri doesn't make a public statement then each and every person is welcome to try to put something through and see if people want it or not.

I wouldn't want to force people to agree. I see it as a gentlemen's agreement on a voluntary basis. Maybe only a bunch of people would agree, but let's start, others may follow.

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I remember just recently reading a thread (forget the thread now) that Hal tried to bring up a user convention and he was told the same basic thing.

The problem is that on some topics we could argue for ages and no one will change their mind, the reason for that is there are pros and cons on both sides. The only way to reach an agreement is to leave it to the Screeners and agree with their decision.  Maybe I won't like the Screeners' decision, but I think the ongoing controversy is the worst case scenario, so I would happily accept whichever decision as long as we have an agreement on that.

And as I said before... I don't agree with that line of thinking at all... it is something I won't agree to. Especially since you have 1 profile submitted one way... another profile submitted the opposite way... and they both get approved or bothe declined... it happens way too often.

So as I said... I could never agree to a user convention based on an approval of a profile.

Quoting hal9g:

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Quoting EnryWiki:

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The only way to reach an agreement is to leave it to the Screeners and agree with their decision.

A better way would be for Ken to update the Rules! 

I agree... or second to that... Ken and/or Gerri making a statement on what to do here on the forum.

Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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And as I said before... I don't agree with that line of thinking at all... it is something I won't agree to. Especially since you have 1 profile submitted one way... another profile submitted the opposite way... and they both get approved or bothe declined... it happens way too often.

So as I said... I could never agree to a user convention based on an approval of a profile.

So we (as a community of users) are going to take data in and take data out, and then in again, and then... 


Well, at least I tried to stop this folly.

Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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In my opinion it is not what you tried... but they way you tried. As I said... since it is so common for profiles to be accepted or declined both ways... the approval or decline of a profile is not the way to do it at all.

Not of any profile. But I guess that if the Screeners are informed that we (some of we) are going to voluntary use their decision as guidance, they might give some extra thought to the issue, because it's going to be used as a precedent. 

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In my eyes the best way to get something like the user convention is to use a poll. It shows what the majority wants... not only to us... but to Invelos as well... which is a good stepping stone to get it into the rules.

Yes, Invelos might use our polls to update the Rules (or might not!)  but in the meanwhile everyone will keep doing whatever they think is right. Besides, polls do not always show what people want. Oftimes polls are about what people think the Rules actually mean, regardless of what they would personally like.