Going to argue against some of the points Rifter has been making.

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How then do you justify the fact that most retailers call these things "starter sets?"  It is painfully obvious that they are meant to house the entire set of discs in that series.

I won't try to make any argument based on how retailers advertise the sets, as there's just too much variation there, and it won't agree with what we put in the final profile anyway.  I certainly agree that the boxes were meant to house the entire series, however that mainly relates to the arguments surrounding whether the box should be a box set profile at all, and that has already been agreed upon.

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What it looks like you're really objecting to is that you have to go back and spend a few seconds adding another child to the boxset.  And having a partially complete boxset is just fine (if it accurately reflects that there are only say, 4 out of 7, of the full set available.

Not arguing against the work.  In fact, having only the first disc as a child means you have to go back and update the parent profile anyway.  One of the problems I see, though, is in maintaining data consistency.  Example:

I pick up vol 1 + box when it comes out.  That's the only entry in the profiler.  All people with this entry have the same data, which matches what's in the database.

A few months later I pick up volumes 2-4.  Let's say that in the meantime someone has been keeping the box profile up to date, so the box set contents are volumes 1-4.  If I update the box profile in my local database, it will -not- download the additional volume numbers due to the intrinsic locking mechanism.  Thus I need to update my local profile manually, just as if only volume 1 were included as the box set contents in the main database.

Someone else purchased the box when only volumes 2-3 had been added, so his contents are for 1-3.

So, until I manually update my profile, there are now 3 different representations of the box set contents (vol 1, vols 1-3, vols 1-4), all of which are 'valid' (though not exactly correct) since they have not been manually modified since the original download of the profile, and the profile has been kept up to date with updates.

Because of the intrinsic locking of box set contents, only people who downloaded the profile after -all- of the discs were added will have all the data in their local system without needing to manually modify anything.  That may be upwards of a year after the initial box profile entry.

And of course, as mentioned, due to the nature of LE releases it's quite possible that there may not be a single "correct" set of Box Set Contents profiles.  So once again, the user will have to manually modify the set to match what they actually have.


Due to the fact that no matter which method is used people will have to manually update the box profile anyway, I'd prefer to use the method that requires the least amount of ongoing contribution maintenance, and the greatest consistency at the main database level.  Besides, any changes you manually make to the box set contents are safe from being reset by new updates without you having to remember to lock the profile itself.

The only thing I'd like for this scenario would be a simple way to edit the box set contents without marking the profile as needing to be contributed. (drag-and-drop one profile onto an existing box set?)

Quoting Kinematics:

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Going to argue against some of the points Rifter has been making.

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How then do you justify the fact that most retailers call these things "starter sets?"  It is painfully obvious that they are meant to house the entire set of discs in that series.

I won't try to make any argument based on how retailers advertise the sets, as there's just too much variation there, and it won't agree with what we put in the final profile anyway.  I certainly agree that the boxes were meant to house the entire series, however that mainly relates to the arguments surrounding whether the box should be a box set profile at all, and that has already been agreed upon.

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What it looks like you're really objecting to is that you have to go back and spend a few seconds adding another child to the boxset.  And having a partially complete boxset is just fine (if it accurately reflects that there are only say, 4 out of 7, of the full set available.

Not arguing against the work.  In fact, having only the first disc as a child means you have to go back and update the parent profile anyway.  One of the problems I see, though, is in maintaining data consistency.  Example:

I pick up vol 1 + box when it comes out.  That's the only entry in the profiler.  All people with this entry have the same data, which matches what's in the database.

A few months later I pick up volumes 2-4.  Let's say that in the meantime someone has been keeping the box profile up to date, so the box set contents are volumes 1-4.  If I update the box profile in my local database, it will -not- download the additional volume numbers due to the intrinsic locking mechanism.  Thus I need to update my local profile manually, just as if only volume 1 were included as the box set contents in the main database.

Someone else purchased the box when only volumes 2-3 had been added, so his contents are for 1-3.

So, until I manually update my profile, there are now 3 different representations of the box set contents (vol 1, vols 1-3, vols 1-4), all of which are 'valid' (though not exactly correct) since they have not been manually modified since the original download of the profile, and the profile has been kept up to date with updates.

Because of the intrinsic locking of box set contents, only people who downloaded the profile after -all- of the discs were added will have all the data in their local system without needing to manually modify anything.  That may be upwards of a year after the initial box profile entry.

And of course, as mentioned, due to the nature of LE releases it's quite possible that there may not be a single "correct" set of Box Set Contents profiles.  So once again, the user will have to manually modify the set to match what they actually have.


Due to the fact that no matter which method is used people will have to manually update the box profile anyway, I'd prefer to use the method that requires the least amount of ongoing contribution maintenance, and the greatest consistency at the main database level.  Besides, any changes you manually make to the box set contents are safe from being reset by new updates without you having to remember to lock the profile itself.

The only thing I'd like for this scenario would be a simple way to edit the box set contents without marking the profile as needing to be contributed. (drag-and-drop one profile onto an existing box set?)

You're forgetting one thing here.  Each one of the subsequently issued volumes for that set will get a profile (using either UPC or Disc ID as appropriate) and will be in the online database.  All that is required to add those to the boxset locally is download that profile and add it to the contents of the master profile.  Ken has said that each disc gets profiled in a box set, not do the first disc and then add following disc info to the profile for the first disc.

Now, if you don't want child profiles then you don't download them and don't add them to the boxset contents.  But don't try to tell anybody that they aren't ALLOWED to do so.

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You're forgetting one thing here.  Each one of the subsequently issued volumes for that set will get a profile (using either UPC or Disc ID as appropriate) and will be in the online database.  All that is required to add those to the boxset locally is download that profile and add it to the contents of the master profile.  Ken has said that each disc gets profiled in a box set, not do the first disc and then add following disc info to the profile for the first disc.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue here.  I know that additional volumes are being added as their own profiles to the database.  That's what I was talking about when I described the box set contents as containing volume 1, volumes 1-3, volumes 1-4, etc.  At no time have I even hinted at the idea that additional volumes should be concatenated with the first volume profile information.

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Now, if you don't want child profiles then you don't download them and don't add them to the boxset contents.  But don't try to tell anybody that they aren't ALLOWED to do so.

Not allowed to do what?  I don't think I've said you're not allowed to "download them and ... add them to the boxset contents".  Please, explain in detail what you think it is that I'm saying, because to me you're not making any sense.  Lay out the process steps and the results of each step that you believe I am describing, then explain what you think is wrong at each step, so I can figure out where the confusion is coming in.

Quoting Kinematics:

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You're forgetting one thing here.  Each one of the subsequently issued volumes for that set will get a profile (using either UPC or Disc ID as appropriate) and will be in the online database.  All that is required to add those to the boxset locally is download that profile and add it to the contents of the master profile.  Ken has said that each disc gets profiled in a box set, not do the first disc and then add following disc info to the profile for the first disc.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue here.  I know that additional volumes are being added as their own profiles to the database.  That's what I was talking about when I described the box set contents as containing volume 1, volumes 1-3, volumes 1-4, etc.  At no time have I even hinted at the idea that additional volumes should be concatenated with the first volume profile information.

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Now, if you don't want child profiles then you don't download them and don't add them to the boxset contents.  But don't try to tell anybody that they aren't ALLOWED to do so.

Not allowed to do what?  I don't think I've said you're not allowed to "download them and ... add them to the boxset contents".  Please, explain in detail what you think it is that I'm saying, because to me you're not making any sense.  Lay out the process steps and the results of each step that you believe I am describing, then explain what you think is wrong at each step, so I can figure out where the confusion is coming in.

OK, apparently I misinterpreted your meaning.  It's hard to keep track of who is saying what.

Here's what I mean:

1. User buys boxset XYZ consisting of Vol 1 and a slipcase that can hold all seven vol in the series.
2. He creates a profile for the box using the UPC, and one for the vol. using disc ID.
3. The profile for vol. 1 is attached to the box profile via the boxset contents button.
4. 2 months later Vol. 2 is purchased.  User profiles it and adds it to the contents of the box.
5. Over the next 9 months, the remaining 5 vol. are purchased and added to the contents.
6. One year from #1, user has boxset XYZ with all 7 vol. in the box.
7. Subsequently, 17 other users download all 7 child profiles and the box profile, and link all together.

That's the way the process should work.  Bluetoothpaste or whatever his name is, wants to restrict anybody from adding those subsequent six vol. to the box contents, which would effectively prevent follow-on users from knowing which children to grab for a complete set.

Obviously, anybody who doesn't want the children, doesn't have to grab them, and if they aren't in the local DB, then the Boxset contents doesn't work anyway.

Quoting Rifter:

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That's the way the process should work.  Bluetoothpaste or whatever his name is, wants to restrict anybody from adding those subsequent six vol. to the box contents, which would effectively prevent follow-on users from knowing which children to grab for a complete set.

I don't understand this argument. If someone buys the box and all the volumes to go in it, they will have the individual UPCs to use to download all the profiles, which they can then add to the box profile locally. Whereas by adding the individual volumes to the online box profile, you are forcing erroneous data on those who do not have all the volumes.

Also you do not address the issue of what to do when there are multiple versions of the later volumes - which versions would you add to the online box profile?

Quoting TheFly:

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I don't understand this argument. If someone buys the box and all the volumes to go in it, they will have the individual UPCs to use to download all the profiles, which they can then add to the box profile locally. Whereas by adding the individual volumes to the online box profile, you are forcing erroneous data on those who do not have all the volumes.

Also you do not address the issue of what to do when there are multiple versions of the later volumes - which versions would you add to the online box profile?

When I come home with volume X of a series I don't go and look at the box profile to find that disc. I look on the back of the package and type in the UPC code.

Ok...

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1. User buys boxset XYZ consisting of Vol 1 and a slipcase that can hold all seven vol in the series.

Yes.

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2. He creates a profile for the box using the UPC, and one for the vol. using disc ID.

Sometimes.  The profile for the included disc is more likely to be added by UPC.  There are occasional instances where the UPC is not on the included disc package, so you'd use disc ID there.

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3. The profile for vol. 1 is attached to the box profile via the boxset contents button.

Yes.

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4. 2 months later Vol. 2 is purchased.  User profiles it and adds it to the contents of the box.

This is the point where the poll question starts coming into play.  Vol 2 is purchased and its profile added to the database normally.  The question is then whether it should be added to the box set contents *and* uploaded to the main database (it's pretty much assumed that it will be added to the box set contents locally, regardless).

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5. Over the next 9 months, the remaining 5 vol. are purchased and added to the contents.

Same as point #4.

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6. One year from #1, user has boxset XYZ with all 7 vol. in the box.

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7. Subsequently, 17 other users download all 7 child profiles and the box profile, and link all together.

While this is fine for the users who download the profiles after the entire series is out, it doesn't address the inconsistency issue I brought up for users who download the profiles before the series is complete.  However, see the following for how that (my concerns on consistency) is irrelevant now.


Technical notes, trying to work out the exact program behavior:

I see that adding profiles to box set contents does not trigger a contribution requirement from the program, so that issue that I brought up is moot.

If I add child profiles as box set contents (thus ensuring that the box profile contains the entire series), then remove those child profiles and re-add them, they do not get re-added to the box profile.  This is the case whether the child profiles are part of the local profile's Box Set Contents only, or if they are part of the online profile's as well.

If you preview a box set that contains profiles that you do not have in your local database, it does not show the name of the related disc.  Thus at the preview level, you cannot be sure which discs you need to get to add to the box set just from the preview screen (usually not an issue with anime series since they'll be named consistently, but it also means that it's not a benefit of keeping the entire series in the Box Set Contents).

If you download the box profile without its accompanying child profiles, all Box Set Contents information is lost.  Since Box Set Contents is intrinsicly locked, it cannot be recovered by running an update on that profile.

If you download the box profile and the child profiles that go with it at the same time, all Box Set Contents information is still lost.

And downloading the box profile (with the Box Set Contents containing the child profiles) even with the child profiles already in the local collection still loses all Box Set Contents information.

So it seems that no matter what Box Set Contents information is set in the main database, all that information is lost when you download the profile, and you have to set the contents locally no matter what.  Because Box Set Contents are also intrinsicly locked, the field is almost completely local data.


So I can think of only two uses for the Box Set Contents that are uploaded to the main database:
1) A little information on preview when downloading a new profile (usually only UPC codes/disc IDs).
2) Comparing a local profile with the online version to see what has changed; if we update the main database profile to include all child profiles, you can use this to see if there are any child profiles you haven't attached to your local profile yet.

Given this, does it change any of how you feel about the issue?

Quoting Kinematics:

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Ok...

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4. 2 months later Vol. 2 is purchased.  User profiles it and adds it to the contents of the box.

This is the point where the poll question starts coming into play.  Vol 2 is purchased and its profile added to the database normally.  The question is then whether it should be added to the box set contents *and* uploaded to the main database (it's pretty much assumed that it will be added to the box set contents locally, regardless).

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5. Over the next 9 months, the remaining 5 vol. are purchased and added to the contents.

Same as point #4.




Technical notes, trying to work out the exact program behavior:

I see that adding profiles to box set contents does not trigger a contribution requirement from the program, so that issue that I brought up is moot.

If I add child profiles as box set contents (thus ensuring that the box profile contains the entire series), then remove those child profiles and re-add them, they do not get re-added to the box profile.  This is the case whether the child profiles are part of the local profile's Box Set Contents only, or if they are part of the online profile's as well.

If you preview a box set that contains profiles that you do not have in your local database, it does not show the name of the related disc.  Thus at the preview level, you cannot be sure which discs you need to get to add to the box set just from the preview screen (usually not an issue with anime series since they'll be named consistently, but it also means that it's not a benefit of keeping the entire series in the Box Set Contents).

If you download the box profile without its accompanying child profiles, all Box Set Contents information is lost.  Since Box Set Contents is intrinsicly locked, it cannot be recovered by running an update on that profile.

If you download the box profile and the child profiles that go with it at the same time, all Box Set Contents information is still lost.

And downloading the box profile (with the Box Set Contents containing the child profiles) even with the child profiles already in the local collection still loses all Box Set Contents information.

So it seems that no matter what Box Set Contents information is set in the main database, all that information is lost when you download the profile, and you have to set the contents locally no matter what.  Because Box Set Contents are also intrinsicly locked, the field is almost completely local data.


So I can think of only two uses for the Box Set Contents that are uploaded to the main database:
1) A little information on preview when downloading a new profile (usually only UPC codes/disc IDs).
2) Comparing a local profile with the online version to see what has changed; if we update the main database profile to include all child profiles, you can use this to see if there are any child profiles you haven't attached to your local profile yet.

Given this, does it change any of how you feel about the issue?

The sticking point is #4 and #5 and your comments there.  It's a new contribution, therefore it gets an automatic by and goes online so that everybody who has that set can add it to the contents.  Of course it is added at the local level by the contributor.  It would be nonsensical not to.

My entire problem with this issue was two-fold.  First, some were saying it wasn't even a boxset, when it clearly is. And second, that we shouldn't be able to even upload the profile of follow-on discs, let alone add to the contents of it.  Both of those were clearly people trying to impose their personal preferences on everybody else.

The idea is to add it all to the online.  Then, everybody can take what they want and leave the rest without interfering with the guy on either side of them.