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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Vote on Hong Kong/Asian movie actor 'community' name! |
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| Author |
Message |
| Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | -double | | | | -- Enry | | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting DarklyNoon: Quote:
C'mon fellows, let us simmer down a bit.
No one should get personal on that issue, although it is an issue that leaves a lot open for discussion.
As long as Ken doesn't change the rules, we should not discuss this over and over again 
For me both sides have VERY good points.
Skip's side has a very valid point in entering data as it appears on screen, so that misinerpretaion is not happening.
But I can also understand the other side here, entering a name as family name, which I definitely know that it is the forename, is also not satisfying at all.
But ah well, I hope Ken will write something here in this topic.
But for now, I would really suggest if there is a need to discuss this, that we keep it objective and leave ANY personal attacks out of it
greetings
Donnie Yes, both sides have good points. Having said that, I also think that: 1. DVD Profiler is about credits, after all, not families. 2. There are endless actors and lots of users! Documenting every name would be a nightmare and most users wouldn't do it anyway. That's why I am with Skip and others, on this one. I vote for the easier and more practical system: same order as on screen. As for the "turn off the brains", don't we already when we enter ", Jr." as part of the last name?  | | | | -- Enry | | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting DarklyNoon: Quote:
C'mon fellows, let us simmer down a bit.
No one should get personal on that issue, although it is an issue that leaves a lot open for discussion.
As long as Ken doesn't change the rules, we should not discuss this over and over again
For me both sides have VERY good points.
Skip's side has a very valid point in entering data as it appears on screen, so that misinerpretaion is not happening.
But I can also understand the other side here, entering a name as family name, which I definitely know that it is the forename, is also not satisfying at all.
But ah well, I hope Ken will write something here in this topic.
But for now, I would really suggest if there is a need to discuss this, that we keep it objective and leave ANY personal attacks out of it
greetings
Donnie I agree, Donnie and have for some time,. The credits are what we use to provide a consistent dataset and to avoid exactly what Mad, Rho and some others want...user interpretation. I have also said repeatedly aceept how we enter data and then we begin to discuss how to best achieve what they want to achieve. I understand that they want to build FamilyTreeProfiler and it is very important to them. But their hallucinations relative to names i simply unacceptable. I have even gone so far as to say that the easiest solution is for Ken to modify the Rules to allow entry of "correct" AND Documented names. Chow Yun Fat is entered Chow Yun Fat NOT Yun Fat Chow as that violates the Rules in all regards including the CLT. Personally speaking I prefer the single name field, though I think they would still whine, BUT that takes a program modification which will take longer to implement than a simple change to the Rules. As to the comment about turning off brains, obviously none of you have ever done data entry for a database before, that is exactly the kind of job it is. You enter the data, you do not think about it, you do not interpret it, you enter it. As I have said before the majority of peiople here, had they been engaged to enter data into a database I was administering, would be FIRED because there is no room for interpretation by a data entry operator. The data is what it si, not what you think it is. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 302 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
...The credits are what we use to provide a consistent dataset and to avoid exactly what Mad, Rho and some others want...user interpretation. ... It's a pity that you won't realize the the Profiler forced the user to interpret data, because he is forced to split on-screen data. The very-good intension of using the potencial of a database by spitting a person's name into logical parts contradicts with the fact of just collecting on-screen data. On screen we hab 2 different input-values "person's function/role" and "person's name". The Profiler forced us to put them into 4 (optional 5) database-field. If we don't know the person it should be possible not to link them to anybody. But just using "as credited" (what come the "person's name" value next) isn't possible by the programm. And again, this have nothing to do with social standards or opposing interpretations. | | | regards, Mad -
My HD-Media, DVDs, Laserdiscs |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Yes it does, mad. Every time you refuse to recognize the way things were setup and why. How you think a nams is is completely IRRELEVANT...totally so...the data is what it is and i ahve exoplained repeatedly how to do it. And further explained the problem and possible fixes, so it is not me that is irrational and uncoopreative but you and others who are stuck on their hallucinations.
I want to achieve what you want to achievve, but your way is NOT the way.
But just keep on being uncooperative and i hope I don't run into any of this kind of data you have entered incorrectly.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 302 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
...
Yes, both sides have good points.
Having said that, I also think that:
1. DVD Profiler is about credits, after all, not families. at the moment we are forced by the software to split a value into logical sections. So we are near to "crediting families" as you might realize  Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
.2. There are endless actors and lots of users! Documenting every name would be a nightmare and most users wouldn't do it anyway. only a "single-name"-field for just entering the "person' on screen name" could us beware from this dilemma. Documentation is the Key to good data. IMDB for example IS NOT devil and has a good concept, but the hugh lack of documentation of data makes imdb-data to a very error-bounded tertiary source. That's why we use the credits only. | | | regards, Mad -
My HD-Media, DVDs, Laserdiscs |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Not true, Mad. I have explained the intent of that, and you persist in YOUR interpretation of the meaning of the name fields. This simply comes down to you want it to be your way and you are unwilling to reconize that, while I understand your comments, you are dead WRONG.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 302 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Yes it does, mad. Every time you refuse to recognize the way things were setup and why. How you think a nams is is completely IRRELEVANT...totally so...the data is what it is and i ahve exoplained repeatedly how to do it. And further explained the problem and possible fixes, so it is not me that is irrational and uncoopreative but you and others who are stuck on their hallucinations. it's interesting that you haven't just one argument against "your oponents argument" without hitting an own-goal. Often you just yelling lots of bubbles of "blabla" and not infrequently starting to insult. In forums such a person normally is called a troll. Maybe you are one? Personally I don't think so, but you are often just acting like one and I recognize, that you're talking this art oft discussions way too personally in the majority of time. That's why it is very hard to discuss things with you in an impartial matter. (no insults, just my fellings) Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
I want to achieve what you want to achievve, but your way is NOT the way.
But just keep on being uncooperative and i hope I don't run into any of this kind of data you have entered incorrectly.
Skip I don't know what you want to achieve. I just know if I have a movie directed from "Tsui Hark" I have to enter him as "Hark//Tsui" because I know that "Tsui" is his family name and the Profiler-Program forced me to split the on-screen entry "Tsui Hark" into "first name"="given-name"=Hark, "middle name", "last name"="surname"=Tsui and entering [credited as=Tsui Hark] so the CLT-heuristic could do it's job well in future. (Now, you would say "PERIOD", I guess ) And this handling is totally conform with the current rules. Best regards and don't eat too many mickey mice (just a humorous revenge for the turban joke ) mad | | | regards, Mad -
My HD-Media, DVDs, Laserdiscs |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting madacid: Quote:
Quoting EnryWiki:
Quote:
...
Yes, both sides have good points.
Having said that, I also think that:
1. DVD Profiler is about credits, after all, not families.
at the moment we are forced by the software to split a value into logical sections. So we are near to "crediting families" as you might realize
Quoting EnryWiki:
Quote:
.2. There are endless actors and lots of users! Documenting every name would be a nightmare and most users wouldn't do it anyway.
only a "single-name"-field for just entering the "person' on screen name" could us beware from this dilemma. Documentation is the Key to good data.
IMDB for example IS NOT devil and has a good concept, but the hugh lack of documentation of data makes imdb-data to a very error-bounded tertiary source. That's why we use the credits only. Why do you enter ", Jr." in the last name field, then? | | | | -- Enry |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting madacid: Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
Yes it does, mad. Every time you refuse to recognize the way things were setup and why. How you think a nams is is completely IRRELEVANT...totally so...the data is what it is and i ahve exoplained repeatedly how to do it. And further explained the problem and possible fixes, so it is not me that is irrational and uncoopreative but you and others who are stuck on their hallucinations.
it's interesting that you haven't just one argument against "your oponents argument" without hitting an own-goal.
Often you just yelling lots of bubbles of "blabla" and not infrequently starting to insult.
In forums such a person normally is called a troll. Maybe you are one? Personally I don't think so, but you are often just acting like one and I recognize, that you're talking this art oft discussions way too personally in the majority of time. That's why it is very hard to discuss things with you in an impartial matter. (no insults, just my fellings)
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
I want to achieve what you want to achievve, but your way is NOT the way.
But just keep on being uncooperative and i hope I don't run into any of this kind of data you have entered incorrectly.
Skip
I don't know what you want to achieve.
I just know if I have a movie directed from "Tsui Hark" I have to enter him as "Hark//Tsui" because I know that "Tsui" is his family name and the Profiler-Program forced me to split the on-screen entry "Tsui Hark" into "first name"="given-name"=Hark, "middle name", "last name"="surname"=Tsui and entering [credited as=Tsui Hark] so the CLT-heuristic could do it's job well in future. (Now, you would say "PERIOD", I guess )
And this handling is totally conform with the current rules.
Best regards and don't eat too many mickey mice (just a humorous revenge for the turban joke )
mad . AND you are wrong, I don't care what you know or don't. That is NOT how he is credited IS IT. You are changing the appearance of the credit from the DATA to what you want it to be. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 302 |
| | Posted: | | | | I didn't change any appereance, skip. (and btw. I'm not wrong. No matter how often you repeat this like a prayer wheel)
Again,I just split the "on-screen-credit"-value into the 3 name-fields the program forced me to do. (First Name, Middle Name, Last Name). "von Sylow" "van Damme" "Bonham Carter" are "last names"=surnames=family-name, so I enered them into this field. I know, "Chow" and "Tsui" are family-names too, so I entered them into the "last name"-field as well. That's deductive logic of database-structure. (someone who don't get this maybe should use MSWord instead for collecting information?)
And if the entered data deviate from the "on screen credit" (e.g. due to cultural matters) the "as credited" field could absorb this flaw. | | | regards, Mad -
My HD-Media, DVDs, Laserdiscs | | | | Last edited: by madacid |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Posts: 374 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting madacid: Quote:
I didn't change any appereance, skip. (and btw. I'm not wrong. No matter how often you repeat this like a prayer wheel)
And if the entered data deviate from the "on screen credit" (e.g. due to cultural matters) the "as credited" field could absorb this flaw. Your suggestion means that all Asian actors have to have double entries in the style Yun-Fat//Chow credited as Chow//Yun-Fat. I don't think this is a good idea. I can accept that for Asian names we put their last name in the first name field. We should put them in as credited, maybe a check box would come in handy. Important is the linking anyhow and I feel with the CLT we haven't found the optimal solution. | | | | Last edited: by sugarjoe |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 868 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting madacid: Quote:
I didn't change any appereance, skip. (and btw. I'm not wrong. No matter how often you repeat this like a prayer wheel)
Again,I just split the "on-screen-credit"-value into the 3 name-fields the program forced me to do. (First Name, Middle Name, Last Name). "von Sylow" "van Damme" "Bonham Carter" are "last names"=surnames=family-name, so I enered them into this field. I know, "Chow" and "Tsui" are family-names too, so I entered them into the "last name"-field as well. That's deductive logic of database-structure. (someone who don't get this maybe should use MSWord instead for collecting information?)
And if the entered data deviate from the "on screen credit" (e.g. due to cultural matters) the "as credited" field could absorb this flaw. But would you change the order of this credit had there been one name field? Also, this requires people to actually KNOW about the namestructure in asian countries, something i think you can't expect from people contibuting. What if he is credited as Hark Tsui and someone not really knowledgeable on asian names thinks, 'oh yeah i have to put the first part of the name as last name' you then have a incorrect credit of Tsui Hark, which again doesn't link, is not supported by the credits and is wrong using asian name rules. Therefore i completely agree with skip, enter EXACTLY as credited and use credited as where needed. But as i said before, a single name field would solve a lot of these discussions and make it easier for people to contribute. Paul |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | When the program was designed, it is evident that last name meant family name : we have four places where names are sorted by the program (with no possibility of an user choice), filter by cast, filter by crew, cast and crew edit lists in edit profile window. All those lists are sorted by last name, and first name when no last name, which obviously gives a special signification to last name, and not just "third word in credit list".
So if in end credits we have an asian name, or a reversed list with something like "Kidman, Nicole", the program clearly tell us to put family name in last name field. If rules (or interpretation of rules by some of us) say differently, I just say that there is inadequacy between program and rules. And rules are easier to change than the program... | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Surfeur:
Listen UP! Words have meaning, When three name field was used there was a choice to be made. If Family Name was intended then we would have used Family Name in the program. I know that you think you know all, my friend, but most of the time you are dead wrong and especially on this.<shakes head> Last Name does not mean Family Name.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Last Name does not mean Family Name. It does, IMHO. In any case: it certainly doesn't mean "Last Word". To follow your own line of reasoning: if "Last Word" was intended, then that's what would have been used in the program. But that's not the case. As long as it's called "Last Name" and there's no further guidance, there WILL be users who use it to enter what they recognize as someone's "last name" into it. It's unavoidable. You can, of course, keep stating your opinion over and over again, but it won't change that simple fact. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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