Quoting Woola:

Quote:
Astra:

You comment is based grammatical Rules, NOT data

How so? If the credit reads FRANCOIS we don't enter it as FRANCOIS, we enter it as Francois. How is that not an interpretation?

KM

Quoting Woola:

Quote:
... particularly with a Francois, since ther are two different pronunciations for what appears to be the same name....

Second example of your total lack of culture, in less than two hours. For FRANCOIS, there are not two different pronunciations. There is only one, which matches with François. Francois doesn't exit at all.

It is not a problem to ignore things. It's a problem when someone knowing nothing on a subject voices stupidities on that subject.

Quoting Taro:

Quote:
Call me presumtptious all you want, but I indeed know in certain cases a person's correct name even when certain credits are misspelled.

As a Japanologist, who studied Japanese language and culture for the past 10 years, I know that Shido Nakamura is just plain wrong. It's either Shidou Nakamura or Shidô Nakamura. The reason I know is because I've studied all officially recognized romanization methods.

I will concede that it's not part of the DVD's "hard data", but the point is that in certain cases, I can determine without a doubt which name is correct.


And even if I don't know, how would you propose then that I enter the name of a person entered as JEAN-PAUL VAN DAMME without interpreting the data or using external sources? I can't enter it all caps because DVDP won't accept it. So which do I use then? I fully acknowledge that I don't know whether his name is Van Damme or van Damme ... but that doesn't change the fact that I need to enter it some way into DVDP and since I don't know how and the rules offer no answer, what should I do then? That's the real problem here: we're talking hard data but that data isn't always adequat to be put into DVDP. Perhaps you can tell me how to deal with that?

Taro:

Don't think of the jean Paul Belmondos of the world or the Truffauts, think instead from the vbottom, of those people who are unknown or relatively unknown, those that there is literally not going to be any supporting documentation to support your cloim, yet you are going to presume with no knowledge to assume that YOU possess the knowledge to figure out a REAL name, that si almost too funny for words, We have the correct answer and Ken has stated it. I am amzed at how many users we have that posses either a doctorate in Nameology or superhiman skill that don't exist, maybe a divining rod would help.

@ Surfeur not with a credit of Jean Paul it's not, without documentation. My dear surfeur, you are so focused on beimng culturally correct you do not even begin to come close to understanding the fallacy of your argument. you presume that I am utterly stupid pertaining to your cultural rules, you insult my intelligence. I am very aware of them, and most German Rules as well and even Engl;ish, they are all part of my persobnal gheritage. Oriental rules I learned many years ago, but those Rulles have NOTHING to do with the data tjhat is displayed On Screen, Zip, Zero, Nada.

And insulting my intelligence gets you NOWHERE. I keep hoping that one day you will understand DATA, but it looks like an increasingly remote possibility.

Skip

Quoting Woola:

Quote:

And insulting my intelligence gets you NOWHERE. I keep hoping that one day you will understand DATA, but it looks like an increasingly remote possibility.

If you want to see how I understand DATA, you could have a look at CLT and show me how many Jean Paul Belmondo are in front of  how many Jean-Paul Belmondo.     

Can you explain me how your high intelligence leads you to use Jean Paul when all the internet, and also the dvdprofiler online database (the must of the must) use Jean-Paul ???? 

Quoting Woola:

Quote:
Data is very simple...it is or it is not...and data entrry as boring as it is, is also very simple when you follow the data.

First of all, it just isn't that simple. Even basic data transcription can be done in different ways, which the continual discussions in these forums bear out.

Secondly, who is interested in a bunch of data, anyway? OK, you obviously are and there are probably others with you. But for users like myself the data is only a means to an end; I am much more interested in the information conveyed by the data. The good news is that we can have both; both correct data and meaningful information, but it requires us to be mindful of the information carried within when deciding how to transcribe data from screen to DVDP.

Quoting Woola:

Quote:
So please guys I don't go on and on about possessives despite the fact that I think the decision that was reached is dead wrong ... I don't appreciate and find insulting that you and surfeur and some others just have to drone on and on and on that your interpretation is correct

Maybe you don't continue arguing about possessive titles, but there are other issues where you don't accept Ken's ruling and use every opportunity to oppose it. Contributing cast/crew to profiles you don't own springs to mind, which is obviously a topic you feel more strongly about than possessive titles. So I find it rather hypocritical of you to criticize me for trying to influence a decision that I feel strongly about.

Dag

Quoting Dag Ove:

Quote:
Quoting Woola:

Quote:
Data is very simple...it is or it is not...and data entrry as boring as it is, is also very simple when you follow the data.

First of all, it just isn't that simple. Even basic data transcription can be done in different ways, which the continual discussions in these forums bear out.

Secondly, who is interested in a bunch of data, anyway? OK, you obviously are and there are probably others with you. But for users like myself the data is only a means to an end; I am much more interested in the information conveyed by the data. The good news is that we can have both; both correct data and meaningful information, but it requires us to be mindful of the information carried within when deciding how to transcribe data from screen to DVDP.

Quoting Woola:

Quote:
So please guys I don't go on and on about possessives despite the fact that I think the decision that was reached is dead wrong ... I don't appreciate and find insulting that you and surfeur and some others just have to drone on and on and on that your interpretation is correct

Maybe you don't continue arguing about possessive titles, but there are other issues where you don't accept Ken's ruling and use every opportunity to oppose it. Contributing cast/crew to profiles you don't own springs to mind, which is obviously a topic you feel more strongly about than possessive titles. So I find it rather hypocritical of you to criticize me for trying to influence a decision that I feel strongly about.

Dag

To some degree that is correct, but the point remains that Profiler has its data entry for Contribution and you don't like it, it is really that simple. Ken has spelled it out, i have repeatedly explained it, and for my troubles I get my intelligence impugned if not called stupid, racist or something else. I explain that this is about the data says and nothing more NO CULTURE at all, if the data is there I suppoprt it, if the data is being added when it does not real exist then I oppose it, that is not how the system was set up.  It is the simplest of concepts to grasp, it is also no different dfrom the way databases I have designed in the past, BIG ONES. I n at least one case that comes to mind, you (the DE operator) gets a data card filled out by the party, you transcribe it directly from the supplied data, exactly as supplied, interpretation by the data entry operator upon discovery of said error, will resuklt in a written reprimand, further deviances from the supplied data would result in termination or reassignment, US Government Rules not mine. The DE Operator (us), transcribes the data he is given he does not insert fictional data or data which he THINKS should be there. Thus if he receives a data set that says Jean / Paul/ Bemondo, then he had best enter at that way and not make it either Jean Paul//Belmondo or Jean-Paul Belmondo. Now admittedly evry name has a record number, but such record numbers are not necessarily correct or "unique" as the wave of ID thefts shows.

Again this just an example, but I am on record as saying repetitively that Jean Paul Belmondo can be documented as Jean Paul//, GREAT, if not Jean/Paul is merely a starting place waiting for a user to provide documentation. For all any of us know, without doc, is that for some reason Jean Paul decided to "Americanize" his name, I am not he, I don't know and if Jean Paul happens to be an unknown or a relative unknown...neither do you.

I have no issues with REAL data, and for those who for some reason desperately want to involve or acknowledge their national cultural heritage, I am also on the record as saying that properly documented "correct" name usage when it differs from the data through the Coimmon Name system would be fine with me, I think it would weaken the system , but if it makes those involved happy...fine...that is my stance and Ken has not yet stated that this would be OK with him, probably because he perceives the same weakening of the system that I do, but i really don't know. The point is that I have always been willing to attempt to accomodate those wishes if it is possible....as long as it does not change the base data (Credited As).

What the incessant whining and gnashing of teeth tells me is that my ideas too accomodate your wishes are not good enough for you. I have done all that I am capable of doing, and that is going on record with a compromise, yet that does not please you. So my basic respponse to that attituide is tough, follow the Rules, and i will hope that Ken one day will endorse the compromise.

The prtogram and its attendant Rules are not perfect and never will be, no program ever is. If John Wayne were credited in any film as Jean Wayne or maybe even Ian Wayne, I would not be in the slightest upset by it and scream at the top of lungs that it is John Wayne, I would deal with it, and if there was not on Online solution...I would deal with it locally, I might suggest a solution, as I have done, buit without a solution there is no sense in going on and on and on ad infinitum., with the same shop worn and tired arguments.

The bottom line is that the only person that knows a name is the Person whose name it is. I can only make suggestions for Ken's benefit and hope, were it my decision I would have made this change years ago, not that i expect in any way that would eliminate surfeur's whine or Taro's belief that he knows all relative to names, I could only wish. But, for now until Ken makes at least some statement, hopefully along the lines of my proposed compromise, I can do nothing more but to defend the Rules and the Online from what i view as nothing less than vandalism, and arguing with me will accomplish NOTHING to your benefit.

Quoting Dag

Quote:
Secondly, who is interested in a bunch of data, anyway? OK, you obviously are and there are probably others with you. But for users like myself the data is only a means to an end; I am much more interested in the information conveyed by the data. The good news is that we can have both; both correct data and meaningful information, but it requires us to be mindful of the information carried within when deciding how to transcribe data from screen to DVDP.

Precisely, dag, but the online is not meant to service YOU, it is meant to service ALL, and to that extent no one will ever be happy, because somebody like you wants the Online to serve THEIR needs and nothing else matters. But, that si why we have a Two-tiered system, to allow for every user to deal with the data as his needs require it.

Skip

Skip

Skip

Quoting Woola:

Quote:
...thank GOD the french don't run the world anymore. I don't care much about who does, but PLEASE not the French. Incessant they are. Good grief.


Skip

To my French (and other nationalities that skip attacks on a fairly recent basis) friends, I'd like to point out that not all Americans are ignorant dicks. Please don't let the redneck with the loudest voice form your opinion of how the rest of us feel. We all aren't Jerry Spring Show guests, and I find that the people who have skip's opinion have never left their home town of Mayberry, instead getting all their information from the talking box.

I have been to France, I love both the people and the country. And the food rocks, too.

But sadly, the bigots in our country have louder mouths than the rest, so it's their voice you hear most often.

Quoting Woola:

Quote:
Taro:

Don't think of the jean Paul Belmondos of the world or the Truffauts, think instead from the vbottom, of those people who are unknown or relatively unknown, those that there is literally not going to be any supporting documentation to support your cloim, yet you are going to presume with no knowledge to assume that YOU possess the knowledge to figure out a REAL name, that si almost too funny for words, We have the correct answer and Ken has stated it. I am amzed at how many users we have that posses either a doctorate in Nameology or superhiman skill that don't exist, maybe a divining rod would help.

The thing is, for those names that I have adapted in the online, I can and haveprovided valid documentation. I've done so in the past and in those cases, I will either use the 'credited as' feature (per the rules I'm allowed to do so) or I will simply correct the name if it is a result from a erronous romanization.

Still, I see you haven't answer my question regarding cases where it's all caps. How do you enter the 'hard data' without:
- interpreting the data?
- using external sources?

How do you enter a name like VAN DAMME? Can you say that you are able to enter such names without any outside help, source or interpretation???

DVDP will convert the all caps to lowercase, but how do you know it should be Van Damme or van Damme?

I'm not asking this to attack you in any way but it's a legitimate issue we are confronted to from time to time and for the time being, I honestly don't know how I can input such cases correctly, without falling back on external data or user interpretation.


Also, please stop belittling other cultures and languages. Last I checked this software was made available to international customers and we have just as much right as you do to ask:
- clarification on the rules when needed
- for feature requests that would help resolve issues we have now (like unicode support, etc)